Clifton Phifer to NYY?
It's getting close, apparently. Or is this just more ESPN hype?
I really hope this doesn't happen today, at least. CLE fans have been through enough already this week.
almost 2 years ago
JulioBernazard
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Looks like it’s going to happen. Smart move by the Yankees. They will have both of the Indians former aces. God it sucks to like Cleveland sports right now.
Getting an ace pitcher? I fail to see how that isn’t smart.It called trying to win the World Series. So they give up a great prospect. Do you really think the Yankees aren’t going to be able to find a catcher or a 1B down the road?
other than the fact that getting an ace pitcher isn’t on the list of things you have to be particularly smart to do, being able to make up for doing something that isn’t altogether smart – trading young, club controlled talent – doesn’t make it smart.
Yes, in fact, I think the Yankees may really struggle to replace this particular talent. A great catcher is tough to find at any price.
Opportunity cost. Do they really need Cliff Lee in that rotation more than they need Montero going forward? I don’t think they do, and no, even money can’t necessarily buy you both.
by Jay on Jul 9, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. Any time you can get a pitcher of Lee’s caliber and non existent injury history it’s OK to give up great prospects.
Although it doesn’t look like it’s happening now.
You do know he missed all of April 2010 and struggled through rehab for all of 2007, right?
by Jay on Jul 9, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Well it isn’t too far-fetched to conclude that Montero isn’t going to stick behind the plate, he turns into a 1B/DH type.
If the Mariners believe that, then the trade probably doesn’t happen. Word is that they’re pushing hard for a top catcher.
by Jay on Jul 9, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
That would make sense. They had potential top guys like Jojhima and Clement in the past but I hear Jojhima went back to Japan and Clement is now on the pirates. Neither panned out.
They have a guy in the minors named Adam Moore who is an older prospect (not as much for a catcher) at 26 and was close to being in the majors, but got injured. He seems to have about as much potential at this point as a marson from the reports i have gathered, though he has shown a bit more pop in his bat…still only looks like an average MLB catcher at best.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Marson is two years younger and has already had 235 PAs in the bigs. Moore, already, has less potential than Marson, by far. And, Marson, by far, has more potential than “an average MLB catcher.”
Replacement-level catcher is -32.5. Marson is well above that. I know average isn’t replacement level, but Marson ain’t Jason Kendall.
I posted a link to Neyer’s story on this in another thread this morning. I don’t consider him part of the ESPN hype machine.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 9, 2010 1:49 PM EDT reply actions
I’m thinking I hope the Yankees win the next 14 World Series and outspend every team by at least $250 million per year. Maybe it will finally prove a point about MLB’s ridiculous disparity.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
You would think it’d be obvious by now. But sports writers keep cranking out the “Yankees owners win because they want it more than other owners” type of pieces.
This is just a prelude to Grady Sizemore and Choo being Yankees in a couple of years.
BUT! He’s being traded (does he have the power to reject a trade?) and not signing with the Yankees. Yet.
So there’s some wiggle room.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
You are correct Roger. No Yankee under any circumstance is worthy of our respect. Not a one.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 9, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It would be good strategy for the Yankees to make this deal close enough that Seattle throws an easily beatable pitcher out there tonight.
Add 1 to the WAR Lee brings.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
Apparently talks are slowing with Texas now rumored to be offering Smoak.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
Trade is done. Smoak monster is one of 4 players going to Seattle for Cliff and some reliever I have never heard of. Jack Z pulled a Shap and is picking up part of the salary.
Best part is M’s thanking Cliff for the memories, as if their 2.5 months together has really bonded them.
Beavan is not a serious loss. Sure, Doug Fister looks good in SafeCo Field, and Beavan is also along those lines — limits the walks and doesn’t give up homeruns. But he’s middle to back-end of the rotation material unless he gets a second pitch. Used to throw hard as hell, and now his fastball is nothing special.
I still can’t believe the Rangers gave up Smoak for a rental.
I’m not saying Beavan is any great loss but who’s the better player ever surrendered for Lee? I think Carrasco is the only contender.
There are a lot of ways to evaluate trades and I’m trying my damnedest to not evaluate this one for 5 years. It doesn’t seem to make sense but I’ve been made a fool by thinking the “smart” team did better before; maybe the Texas scouts made the call and will end up being right.
Oh, without a doubt, Smoak is the best player among the returns for Cliff ( if I’m betting as a non-scout). Carrasco was never the pitching prospect that Smoak is the hitting prospect.
Just like Andy Marte was the best player in the Coco deal. Yet 4.5 years later, Kelly Shoppach wears that crown, maybe even ahead of Coco. And in 4.5 more years, maybe Andy wins out after all.
I was leaving Smoak aside. You’ve got the super young Beavan having a resurgence this season vs the kind of young CarCar having a bad year in AAA a year ago. Seems close as to who’s the better get at the time and no other player ever dealt for Lee approaches the shine on those two, right?
I can’t possibly think a guy who essentially hasn’t pitched since he was acquired was as big a piece as was made out to be.
The MRIs were bad and are still bad and he was more of a flier than anyone wanted to believe. That deal was CarCar/Donald/Marson with a flier that Amaro didn’t think he needed to worry about. Whether or not he was right, well, that’s going to take at least 4 years.
It’s a calculated risk on both ends, sure.
But give 30 scouting directors, 30 directors of minor league operations, and 30 GMs the choice between Knapp, Carrasco, and Beavan, and I’m guessing Knapp is the heavy favorite among them all.
I keep coming back to the idea that talent wins out. Talent is talent. It’s what promoted Cleveland to take Carrasco, and even more so to take Knapp. Beavan has the results, like Sowers and Huff had. But at the major league level, by and large, the guy with talent is going to be the guy with sustainable results. In light of that, I’m going with Knapp, knowing damn well the odds are that he never pitches in a major league game, at least in a meaningful capacity.
Talent does not win out over the ability to keep your arm healthy.
by Jay on Jul 9, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure that’s within anybody’s ability. That’s not to say Carrasco and Beavan aren’t better bets to stay healthy than Knapp, considering Knapp’s already had one major injury scare. Yes, it all factors into the equation.
The point is that you accrue 3 or 4 Knapps, and hope one works out, you’ve got more value than if all three Beavan’s in your system work out.
I’m not sure it’s an empirical question, which is why there’s no way to know who’s going to get hurt or which pitcher can survive with what mix of stuff and pitchability.
Having said that, I’m of the belief that Aaron Laffey will always be Aaron Laffey, and Nick Blackburn will be Nick Blackburn. And I don’t know how Nick Blackburn managed to do what he did over 400 innings the last two years, but in 100 innings this year, I think the real Nick Blackburn came out.
If all the Beavans in the world give you a rotation of Blackburns, so be it. Just hope they keep it together in the same year.
The Twins seem to manage four and twenty Blackburns to bake into a pie.
"Facebook is bad news. It and Jason Donald both crush dreams." - JRontherim
by woodsmeister on Jul 11, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The pundits seemed to bill that trade as one for knapp, the young low-level powerful arm with huge upside potential, with a couple of potential role players and maybe mid rotation starter who was a good prospect although his value had fallen. Are you employing selective memory, am I missing something, or are you saying that you characterize the trade in this way now, after the fact?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 10, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The pundits got it wrong.
The front office emphasized Knapp because of his high upside, and because if they didn’t emphasize him, he would be portrayed in the media as a throw-in — as Grady was.
The media took this to mean that he was the key piece in the deal, when in truth, there were four very good pieces, all of them arguably “buy low” acquisitions, and none of them looking very key-piece-like individually.
BP didn’t have Beavan among the top 15 TX prospects. That’s a deep system, but he was behind Max Ramirez, among others.
So far, I’d say the best player ever given up for Phifer is Bartolo Colon.
by odradek on Jul 10, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ESPN New York: Yankees still likely to get Lee, just have to wait longer.
Summary: New York can offer the most money, Rangers can’t keep him in the offseason due to money issues, and his friends Sabathia and Burnett tell him good things about New York.
Really, guys? Talk about being sore. Is this not the response of a defensive child? “Oh yea, well, just wait…”
Classic NY media response.
While driving this morning, on the Herd, his guest was discussing the NY media.
They were crying about how unfair the Wade-Bosh-James trio was in Miami because of $$. Then without skipping a beat they were ecstatic about the potential Lee deal .Totally hypocritical as usual for NY fans.
love this trade from both perspectives (talking, obviously, about the trade that actually happened)
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
I don’t care who Texas gives up as long as it keeps Lee from being a Yankee.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
Yeah. Within the last 24 hours, I’ve watched the LeBron debacle and found out my favorite bar in Lexington burned down. I’m pretty pissed off about both of those things, and I don’t think I could have stomached seeing Lee go to NY.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 9, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s OK, Cliff’s gonna shut ’em done in the play-offs when it counts. Unlike a coupla other mutts I can think of.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m not saying CC was a play-off stud, but when you frame Lee favorably as compared to those guys on the basis that they didn’t get it done in the play-offs, it bears pointing out that he never did anything for us in the postseason.
Come on, four billion!
Look, Shapiro/Wedge didn’t even put Cliff on the play-off roster. But to be fair, I didn’t think he shouldda been on it either in 2007. But again he was working his way back from an injury.
Whatever, right now, today, if it was the seventh game of the WS and I could pick any pitcher in baseball to start, I’d pick Cliff Lee. You might like Halliday or Strasburg or whomever better, but I’d take Lee.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Because 2007 ALCs was all CC’s fault.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
All we needed was one game – one goddam game – and Tubby couldn’t deliver. T
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 10, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, we needed 5 more games. One against the Sox and then a sweep of the Rockies.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 10, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Much worse players than what the Indians received.
by Brick. on Jul 9, 2010 9:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Much better Indians than what the players received.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
Much better Indians than what the Indians received.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 10, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Seattle also gave up more than just Cliff Lee. Mark Lowe had a heck of a season for Seattle last season as a set up man with an additional 2 years of team control, and also included 2.25 million.
I dont get why this is getting over looked by people who can’t get over this whole “who got the better players”.
"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"
because he’s likely to miss the remainder of the regular season?
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
It’s not just Lowe, you gonna tell me that 2.25 million didn’t help net Smoak? Cause the other 3 don’t impress me anymore than Donald, Carrasco, and Marson/Knapp or any combo of 3 of those 4.
The only thing about this trade is that Seattle has that one player that they can say “hey look at who we got” just like with the Indians getting LaPorta with CC.
"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"
How much did the Rangers give up for him? The consensus is that young first baseman Justin Smoak, the center piece of Texas’ package, is better than any of the seven players surrendered by Philadelphia and Seattle in the two previous trades involving Lee in the past year. … But his appeal as a switch-hitter might be overrated. In 87 plate appearances from the right side as a Ranger, Smoak was hitting .139 with a .207 OBP and a .266 slugging percentage. … "He’s good, but not a perennial All-Star,‘’ said one player personnel man, who told ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark that Smoak is "maybe Garrett Jones.’’
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
The internet scouty club all love Smoak, but the numbers are not particularly great. Montero seems to have much more power potential.
The word you’re looking for is “scouterazzi.”
by Jay on Jul 10, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just for the sake of clarity, “scouterazzi” refers specifically to scouts who write on the internet and not work for Major League teams?
and TMZ. They’re moving big into baseball.
by APV on Jul 10, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lee must not care about jersey #s… different everywhere he’s gone.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
Switched here, too, after a KMTS.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 10, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Kinda sucks to see a pitcher of Lee’s caliber get bounced around so much. Happenstance, or something else?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
He’s proving (proven) himself to be a true ace at a reasonable price. This will all change next year after he’s signed a new contract. I’d say this bouncing around, coupled with his strong performance everywhere he’s gone, show’s he can win anywhere. He should get quite the payday come Nov/Dec – and with it the chance to find a place to stick around for a while.
I just want to believe.
Will he get a Sabathia-sized deal?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 10, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
My guess is that he eventually signs with Texas. It’s close to home, they’ll give him a big pay-check (I got him as the front-runner for this year’s CY) and they should be a play-off club for quite awhile. In the end it’ll be less money than the Yankees will offer, but I’m betting that Lee goes for comfort over getting the last dollar.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Have to agree with cheech in his analysis, but I must admit I mainly posed that question for the sake of the “Sabathia-sized” quip…
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 10, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Look I’m giving cheech and everybody else the other 29 teams, including the Yankees, so I’m looking for some odds. If I were Vegas I’d give the Douches 2 to 5 odds as the favorites and the Rangers one shot in 20. I’d make that bet.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I just meant that Cliff’s your favorite player and you’d be sad if he went to New York.
by NickFantana on Jul 10, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is the Texas ownership is still up in the air. They can’t add any salary right now, and not knowing the Rangers contract situations, I doubt they’ll be able to be competitive with the usual suspects on the free agent market.
Not true. He’s the largest unsecured creditor.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2010 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Has anyone seen that he has a 7+ ERA in TEX over his career (SSS)? Whoops.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 11, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
How the heck has nobody mentioned the stupid 09 opener? I had 2 classes that day. The first one, I sat there typing comment after comment in a thread where everyone was seemingly doing the same. I think that was the day we learned Carroll would be on the DL. And then later, wandered in a circle multiple times during a class critique in order to glance at Gameday… becoming progressively more depressed.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
Despite his agent’s claims, I believe that Lee has been difficult to negotiate an extension with, which in part has led to more trades than a normal upcoming free agent.
Don’t know about difficult to negotiate, but you and I have been on the same wavelength with this one. I just think he’s never been interested in a discount deal. The Philly situation was an unusual situation, but the other two were just teams that knew they couldn’t sign him and were out of contention.
If the Indians didn’t trade him early last year, they would have done it this year. And then he would’ve only been traded once, instead of 3 times.
This whole discussion has been tainted by the three teams that treated Lee like a piece of meat. If he’s developed a mercenary attitude through all of this who can blame him? Of course he’s going to be looking for the gold, but I think this will be a new development, but there’s no way to prove it. Unless, of course he signs with someone other than the Yankees next year for less money. I think that’s a distinct possibility, but much less so now after all the dealings than it was two years ago.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Mercenary attitude? Wow, I just don’t read too much into this. So he’s looking for a big contract. He has a lot of company in that regard.
There’s one thing to want to get paid and to use a little leverage to secure a big deal. It’s another thing to milk every last penny out of the situation, so as to make clear that money and only money matters.
Peavy, Zambrano, Oswalt, – they all got overpaid without being free agents. And other guys got paid fair value—player and team-wise—without being free agents, like Halladay and Buehrle.
There’s a difference between wanting a big contract and wanting the BIGGEST contract. It’s your right as a player to go get it, so go ahead and take it if you want it. But if it’s clear that it was about the last penny on the table, don’t get all offended when people call it what it is. It doesn’t make you a lesser human nor does it make it a more right or more wrong decision, but it does make it a decision completely based on what somebody will give you in terms of absolute dollar value. If the sole consideration is money to the exclusion of all other factors-that’s indeed a mercenary in the modern sense of the word.
Peavy, Zambrano and Oswalt were not overpaid relative to the market — quite the contrary. But they were still not really worth the contracts they got on the field.
Two of the teams that traded Lee opted to receive significant young talent rather than a short, exclusive negotiating window. This is an easy decision.
The third team opted to receive Roy Halladay. Tougher decision but still not all that tough.
There is no reason to think Lee would have been a tough extension to sign based on those specific circumstances. It seems like that, but only from a drama-queen, gossipy point of view. From a business standpoint, nothing unusual has gone on here.
And the “two” teams also were in middle of garbage seasons that were expected (perhaps foolishly) to be winning ones.
by dgcambridge on Jul 11, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
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