Carlos Pena? Derrek Lee? Jason Donald in the OF?
by afh4 on Dec 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST
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Jonah Keri wrote up the needs of every AL team over at Grantland, and he's optimistic about the Tribe:
Looking for a sub-.500 team that could break through and make the playoffs next year? The Indians are that team.
The entire bit on the Tribe is certainly worth a click-through in these news-starved, pre-winter meeting days. Keri's take is that the Indians pitching staff has the chance to really be special, with the young, cheap bullpen backing up the groundball heavy staff. The Indians rotation has generally been young (and pretty lousy) in recent years—the last time the rotation could honestly boast three "proven veterans" was, if you squint, 2009, when the team broke camp with Pavano, Carmona and Cliff Lee. That's not a very convincing bunch of "proof", so if you're on the pessimistic side, you can go back one more year and see Sabathia, Byrd, Westbrook, Carmona, and Lee all starting the season in Cleveland—that's pretty veteran, no? Regardless, the quartet of Masterson, Jimenez, Carmona, and Lowe represents the most appealing mix of talent and ability since that 2008 group. If the Indians are good, it will likely be because of the exploits of three or so of those pitchers.
Keri correctly identifies the Indians problem areas as first base and outfield, and he floats a couple of ideas. Carlos Pena might work at first, especially if Santana spelled him against lefties, as Keri suggests. At the same time, as Bastian reiterated the other day, the Indians really ought to be looking for a right handed bat, not another lefty for Santana to cover for.
Keri's pick for an outfielder as an upgrade over Brantley-rerra (or, just as an insurance against what is a remarkably fragile group of guys, both in terms of health and performance) was DeJesus, who's no longer available after signing with the Cubs for 2 years/$10 million. DeJesus probably wasn't a real option—yet another lefty—and it's not obvious to me that the Indians are going to make a real move in the outfield. The available options are uninspiring. The eye naturally gravitates towards Carlos Beltran, who can hit from the right side and would make an intriguing signing since he could conceivably transition into the DH role after Hafner's contract ends at the conclusion of 2012 (it's almost over! it's almost over!). At the same time, you've got to assume the Indians are priced out of that market. For his part, Bastian (same link as above), thinks Jason Donald in the outfield might be a possibility so, hrm, OK. We'll see.
Over on the Baseball Show with Rany and Joe (iTunes link), Jazayerli and Sheehan agree on a couple of things germane to the Indians: that the strongest free agent crop is first base, and that the Royals are either favorites or a close second to the Tigers to win the Central, especially with the acquisition of Jonathan Sanchez. On the former point, here's the whole list, and the name bandied about by Bastian and others, Derrek Lee, is the one that makes sense to me. On the latter point, I"ll bite my tongue, as I know the follies of trying to bet on young talent—hey, by the way, whatever happened to Jhonny Peralta? Is he still double play partner to Josh Barfield in anyone else's private moments?
A couple of questions for you, smart, smart Tribe fan—
First, what are the Indians real needs? My ranking is:
1B
OF
And, umm, that might be it. We've still got infielders coming out of our ears (Chisenhall, Hannahan, Asdrubal, Donald, Phelps), there's still a lot of starting pitching depth (Tomlin, Huff, Gomez, McAllister, Barnes), they have a backup catcher, and they have a deep bullpen. What am I missing?
Secondly, who's the diamond in the rough here, at either outfield or first? You're allowed to use Matt LaPorta as the answer, but only for one position or the other.
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I’m having a hard time understanding the excitement towards Fukudome. Hopefully it’s just relative compared to the rest of the free agent OF crop? I mean the guy was bad with Cleveland, I’m not sure why anyone would hope he comes back unless every better alternative was off the market (be it free agency or trade).
How much of a known quantity is he, though? His WAR has ranged from -0.2 to 2.8 since coming to the Majors featuring the career lows in WAR, BB%, ISO, wOBA, and HR/FB while featuring career highs in O-swing , GB, and BABIP last year. Considering he’ll be 35 next year, I wouldn’t be very confident in any type of projection for next season.
Don’t beat yourself up: Keri forgot him, too.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 1, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, yes. Will we ever again see an outfield of EZ Choo Fuk.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Dec 1, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
I refuse to believe Jonathan Sanchez upgrades a putrid Royals starting staff enough into a contender.
Definitely possible, but wasn’t Crowe fizzling as a prospect until they moved him to the pen? They are still relying on Bruce Chen quite a bit, good luck getting him to repeat last year.
Yes, Crowe hasn’t ever really been effective as a starter.
I guess the other half of this is that the division is supposedly “so down.” I think the most likely scenario is that the Tigers do something nuts (sign Jose Reyes, play Prince Fielder at 3B), and win it again.
So you expect one of the other ALC teams to make up at least 15 games on the Tigers next year? Seems to me like a pretty high hill to climb.
Here’s the current Vegas odds for next year:
Detroit Tigers -250
Cleveland Indians +425
Chicago White Sox +470
Minnesota Twins +8000
Kansas City Royals +50000
Our best players wear suits.
I don’t know if expect is the right word, but I would not be surprised at all. These things change quite a bit year to year unless you have a clearly superior team. I don’t think the Tigers are that.
I don’t see it happening for KCR next year, either.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 1, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he ended up having a great season. I haven’t seen any numbers tacked to him, but this bit says he might go to Boston for 2 years (pretty unsubstantiated).
I’d pay him a lot if it was only two years, I think. For whatever reason, the health doesn’t spook me. Perhaps because I can’t recall seeing him play since the Mets were in the World Series, so I haven’t watched him limp around much.
2 years wouldn’t bother me, but if it’s $12M+ per year, it might a lot more. Living in NY, I saw a lot of him, and he seems to move like he’s older than 34. His defense and baserunning all seemed to plummet the past several years after being elite most of his career with injuries taking their toll (the advanced numbers agree – EQBRR of -0.1 (~50th percentile) and UZR/150 of -9.2).
He seems simultaneously the least likely to end up in Clevleland, but I went with Beltran. He was far and away the best player on this list last year (and throughout his career), so why not?
Almost assuredly, but you said consider contracts as much as I would like. I’d like to pretend Beltran could be had for 3/30M, and I’d be fine with that. Our need for another outfielder is not likely to grow less dire a year from now.
by APV on Dec 1, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I could see that, actually. It’s the 3 years that spooks me.
by afh4 on Dec 1, 2011 5:10 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Maybe we know the third year will be a bad idea, but have to basically eat it in order to contend these next 2. I think it’s worth it if you operate in the Ubaldo window.
Gosh I’d love Beltran, but I thought he refused to come here last year in a trade? He’d be a good fit. I’d pay him 3/$30 even if we call the third year down-the-drain. We can spell him in the outfield and he can DH. Wonder if he could learn to play first base too? Brad Pitt had Scott Hatteberg taught do it. I saw it with my own eyes.
“It’s not that hard. Tell’em Wash.”
So anything’s possible, right? And since that was the ultimate key to Oakland’s success, and not three stud starting pitchers and the MVP shortstop, I say Championship!
by Bogalusa Bomber on Dec 1, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t like the math. The projected Tribe payroll next year is ~$67m so $30m would be >30% of total payroll. Bad, bad ju-ju.
Our best players wear suits.
Better off with cutting it to the bone in years of non-contention. I’m not for cutting corners in years where we have a shot. We need difference makers now. Anyway, Hafner and Sizemore and Fausto off the rolls next year, probably. That’s $25-30 million right there.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Dec 1, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Violently agree on the payroll cutting. Here’s another thing: almost all the “good” FA signings are either >$20M per year or <$4M per year. We’re in that notch in between where the FA signings are usually “bad”.
Our best players wear suits.
Is there a reason to take a 3 year total salary and make it a % of a one year payroll? Am I misunderstanding the math?
by afh4 on Dec 2, 2011 10:47 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I must be the one misinterpreting the numbers. $30M a year would be nuts.
So you think we could get Beltran for $10M a year? Seems awful low to me.
Our best players wear suits.
I don’t have any idea and I’m notoriously bad at handicapping this stuff. At the same time, the market looks really odd right now, and DeJesus was really cheap. Probably $15M a year is more realistic Beltran money.
“Bringing people to the park” is rarely a good reason to do anything. if the move makes baseball sense, do it. If it doesn’t, don’t. Winning will put a hell of a lot more butts in seats than Carlos Beltran.
by FredOx on Dec 2, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If it was the sole reason, then yes. But since Beltran is pretty good, fills a huge hole in our lineup and brings people to the park as a bonus, if he were to come here for 1 year at 20-25 millino, it would be a no-brainer move.
If they aren’t in it at the deadline they can trade him away.
You’re out of your mind. I promise you Beltran would leap at 1/25M without even asking who was offering it. There have been what, three guys who have gotten contracts with that average annual value? Maybe five? There’s no way 1/25M is ever a no-brainer for the team giving it out.
If you live in Columbus as your name seems to indicate, I’d be more than happy to make some sort of bet with you regarding the AAV of Beltran’s eventual contract.
by Joel D on Dec 2, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why? I’m saying I would sign him for that if that’s what he wanted. I’m not saying the Indians will do that.
He’s going to end up probably going 3/40 or something.
Nope. Just right. If he comes here and plays well and the make the playoffs who cares if they overpaid a bit for Beltran.
If they aren’t contending they can always trade him. The price doesn’t have to be perfect and it’s OK to overpay (it rhymes) sometimes when you are close or contending.
You don’t get to the playoffs by pricing everyone on your roster perfectly, you win by getting good players.
I also probably should’ve thrown this in, a piece from Neyer saying Pena’s worth about $12M a year and not listing the Indians as a likely destination.
God I hope it’s not D. Lee…..You know who put up similar numbers at first base while in the AL last season… Matt LaPorta. Pena is a good fit. But it has been echoed that he hasn’t been talking with the Indians…though I also doubt he signs anywhere until after the big guys get signed at the position. But he could have a number in mind that he’d jump on if a team is willing to go there.
I think that’s the point. Derek Lee stinks too.
Derek Lee with the O’s last year: .246/.302/.404
Matt Laporta with the Tribe: .247/.299/.412
Back to the National League.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Especially one with over 7500 other plate appearances to his name. Besides, maybe Baltimore is just a miserable place to hang your hat.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
No, quite the opposite. We know next to nothing about what Lee would do in the AL next year.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Um, well…
Donald is going to be in uniform on opening day… probably on the bench. So I’m not going to sit here and vote for him.
Because I’m not the one opening up my wallet, Beltran is the obvious answer (and becaue I don’t think it’s happening, not voting for him either). 2 year deal, fine. 1 year: even better. I’d be fine with Fukudome coming back instead.
Peña is interesting (HECK NO at $12M a year), but if I’m running the team, I’m not giving up on LaPorta until July. I think DLee is a bad idea.
And Huff? Who the hell picks Huff?
I guess with Donald I was trying to say, he’s in uniform, and the plan is that he’s going to play quite a bit of OF.
by afh4 on Dec 1, 2011 5:42 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Derrek Lee had a fantastic second half last year. I worry about the first half being the only time he has spent in the AL and he fared poorly, but I still think he is the most ideal target. And there are no defense concerns.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
He only had 101 at bats in his second half in Pittsburgh. I can’t really say whether his uptick is due to being back in the NL or if it happened at random.
A few of the reasons I want him are that he’s a plus glove, a right handed bat, from all accounts a top notch leader and will spell the end of Matt LaPorta.
He actually started to come around in June/July while he was still with Baltimore.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I don’t think that’s really true. He hit a few home runs in July that boosted his OPS above .800, but his OBP was still below .300, so his overall approach was pretty dreadful. He had a 2-homer game to start August, then got injured. He came eventually came back with a magical September that made everything look a little better.
Incidentally it was the second year in a row that Derek Lee started off dreadfully, got traded at the deadline and finished the season on fire for his new team. So if anything, we should trade for him in July.
I know what the market is like in Cleveland, but if the FO is serious about winning (especially the Dolans) then now is the time to spend. The Dolans promised they’d spend when the time was right. The time is perfect. Now it’s time for them to put their money where their mouth is. I’m not saying throw in a bid for Pujols or Fielder, but someone like Beltran who would be pricey but not impossibly so.
This window isn’t getting any smaller. We have 2, maybe 3 years of contention in front of us, and after that it’s a mystery. If the front office has determined that we will now operate in 3 year windows followed by a rebuild, they should be fully committed when those windows come. We can’t sit on our hands and assume we can win the division with the team we have. The Tigers, Twins, and White Sox are getting old, and the Royals haven’t arrived yet. This is the year, if any, to go all in.
Your move, Antonetti.
Why is there this pervasive assumption that they’re going to add a bat via FA?
Since the Wood FA signing, when they’ve added veterans, they’ve done it via trade. From DeRosa through Ubaldo, Fukodome, and Lowe, the Indians have pretty much shied away from the FA market when looking to add a veteran piece. Nobody saw any of those moves coming or the names involved (OK, maybe Fukudome), but limiting the options to Pena, Lee, Kotchman, Beltran, Cuddyer, WIllingham, etc. just because they’re FA seems to ignore what the Indians have done in the recent past in adding veterans.
Sure, they’ve signed the Chad Durbins of the world, but the Millwood and Dellucci signings were a while ago.
Maybe the thinking is that the prospect stash is rather depleted to add those veterans via trade? As has been stated, it’s depleted for pretty satisfactory reasons (guys assuming starting jobs with the ML team, etc.), but I’m not positive we have the package right now to acquire someone who’d bring the same impact.
And yet they netted Derek Lowe, with the Braves picking up 2/3 of his salary for a Low-A non-prospect. Don’t take that to mean that Lowe was obviously preferable to what was out there on the FA SP market, but he’s comparable to guys that are getting 2-year deals and the Indians have him on basically a one-year deal for $5M with little given up to add him.
by The DiaTriber on Dec 2, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, the DeJesus signing certainly could be another sign that they’ll move Byrd, if they’re serious about giving Brett Jackson a shot.
by The DiaTriber on Dec 2, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but Lowe kinda sucked last year. Are these the types of players they should be targeting? Maybe as a depth option, but we’re talking about starting roles. If they start targeting these types of players to fill key holes, they may as well follow Chuck’s suggestion and blow it up for 2015.
Our staff noticed a problem with his mechanics. They said they were going to work on his motion. I don’t know how that will pan out, but that’s the idea of buying Lowe.
I wouldn’t mind exploring a trade for James Loney. He’s in his last year of arb, making him very tradeable, and the Dodgers need relief help. They have some internal options at 1B if they don’t want LaPorta in the deal.
Loney is unspectacular but very steady, entering his prime, a good defender and a definite upgrade for us. Plus he would fit well in a platoon at first, Santana spelling him vs. lefties.
I’m not really convinced he’s an upgrade, and he cost $4.8M last year. Not appetizing to me. Also, don’t really want to go out of our way and take on salary for another LHB.
Loney: .288/.339/.416
LaPorta: .247/.299/.412
Isn’t that an upgrade? 40 points of OBP? We don’t need a great or even a good 1b. Just one that doesn’t completely suck.
Is it worth 3x as much? Is there any real guarantee he’d even reach those paltry numbers? Loney’s bad, just like LaPorta is. I’m not really intrigued by replacing one bad young player with a slightly less bad one, especially when LaPorta (barely) might have upside left while Loney does not.
He’s not bad. He’s a very good first baseman, and a decent hitter who doesn’t strike out that much. He’s a definite upgrade to Laporta on all counts except a few points of ISO.
And as far as the LH/RH thing goes, he’s exactly what you want if the plan is to spell Santana against lefties. The overall positional value goes up quite a bit from last year.
What happened to the Yoennis Cespedes talks? I realize he isn’t considered an MLB free agent yet, but would the Tribe still be in the running when he does gain free agency? Or does the signing of Grady put that rumor to rest? I realize we weren’t much of a player in getting him anyway but the kid looks like a beast.
by ClevelandCrazy29 on Dec 2, 2011 3:25 PM EST reply actions
Also, just thought of this, would he be an international free agent? What impact would the new CBA have on him if this was the case?
by ClevelandCrazy29 on Dec 2, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad.
Anyways, Crazy: I’m sure if we are still serious about Cespedes, Antonetti would prefer that none of us know about it… so it’s impossible to say for sure.
Come on man, really? This was intended to be a serious question. Are we still linked to Cespedes or not?
by ClevelandCrazy29 on Dec 3, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I do think westbrook makes a decent point later, implying, in essence, that it doesn’t really matter whether we are “linked to” a player or not, since that data is very spotty and unreliable.
The better question, would it make sense for us to be in on Cespedes, and is Antonetti likely to think that it makes sense?
The “glut” of 1B in Queens might be something worth watching.
Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, and Lucas Duda may not represent impact bats (or even obvious upgrades over LaPorta) and they’re all LH, but the Indians might find a match with the Mets to find a 1B option.
How bout Carlos Lee on the trade front? He’s obviously available. I’m sure we wouldn’t want to pay too much of that awful $19 mil he’s due next year, but maybe we’ll only have to pay slightly more than the next best offer if Hou is set on moving into full rebuild mode.
He can still mash LHP, early returns on his defense on 1B appear to be much more favorable than his OF play, and he may be showing signs of improved patience at the plate as he heads into the twilight of his career.
Why doesn’t the Tribe do it right and:
1) Trade C Perez +1 to the Reds for Y Alonso, new 1B. Movie Vinnie P to closer. Does anyone have faith in C Perez closing out the big games next year truthfully? LaPorta would make a decent bench player/pinch hitter.
2) Acquire Cuddyer or J Willingham.
That I believe gives us a significant upgrade at Closer, 1B, and LF while dumping the cardiac closer and slightly increasing payroll. The Royals are freaking increasing payroll, we have to now!
Dolans, sell some Cablevision stock and invest in the Tribe instead!
Perez AND Phelps? They’ll need a 2B in the post-Brandon Phillips era.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I do not like Cuddyer or Willingham. I do not want either of them in Tribe uniform. Also, I don’t have a lot of reason to back that up, just doesn’t feel right to me.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I do not like them Sam-I-Am, I do not like Cuddyer or Willingham.
by callmrplow on Dec 5, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly the wrong thing to do. We should be slashing payroll not adding. Unload Hafner, Carmona, and Sizemore at the trade deadline for prospects. Choo’s the only near-term afb guy I’d break the bank for.
Do whatever is necessary to get the payroll down below $40m. Husband our resources until we’ve got something that looks like a WS contender and then open up the checkbook.
Now is not the time to be adding payroll
Our best players wear suits.
I think I agree. I feel like adding a marginal amount of payroll increases the likelihood we’ll be mediocre, without giving us much of a bump towards actually being contenders. To become contenders, we really need Ubaldo, Chiz, Kipnis and Choo to all step up in a major way.
Except they’ve already announced, with the Ubaldo trade, that they don’t feel that way. His contract IS the window they (we) are dealing with.
Chuck, nothing’s changed since August. That trade doesn’t happen if they wanted to husband resources and rebuild. Antonetti will have to follow up with more, not less, in the next two years.
I said it before and I’ll say it again – the team’s finances are directly tied to attendance, unlike some other clubs. They have to field a competitive team NOW, to build on the attendance jump of 2011.
It’s quite likely, and necessary, that this team constantly reevaluated their position, including both this offseason and the trade deadline next year. The team limped to the finish line after being in serious contention at the time of the deal, they may already be rethinking the odds of competing in this window and tempering their offseason moves accordingly.
I’m sure the brain trust is constantly re-evaluating, that’s part of the job description for leading a small market team. Like you say, necessary.
As part of that, they certainly already knew at the time of the trade that not making the playoffs, and finishing around .500 was well within probability.
The trade was made as much for 2012 and 2013 as 2011. The odds that they are considering a total rebuild vs maximizing the roster over the next two years are very long.
That’s not to say that the odds of winning the division during that time are particularly short, just that its likely further moves to shore up the 2012 team is… likely.
I certainly wouldn’t contest the team won’t try to shore up the roster this offseason, but they’re clearly not going all in despite the window pretty clearly being either right now or not for another 4-5 years. Maybe that’s simply the business model they’ve established in an effort to constantly stay on the edge of competitiveness and stay flexible with the roster, but you’d think if they were truly targeting the Ubaldo contract as the window of opportunity they’d be a little more aggressive.
Granted, it’s still early and the free agent market makes being aggressive very difficult, but based on what’s been going on the past 6 months, I’d have to think selling assets at the deadline certainly isn’t off the table depending on what transpires in the next 6 months.
You’re not getting anything too useful back for $27 million in payroll that procured about 2 WAR last year. And I think you have to be a little more proactive than waiting for Kipnis and Chisenhall to become all-star caliber players (or some similar bump that makes us a contender) before opening the checkbook. And it doesn’t look like we’re going to fix the issues at 1B/LF internally anytime soon either. I think it’s reasonable to expect this team to win 85 games, which puts them in the sweet spot for adding talent/payroll and taking chances on guys like Hafner, Carmona, Sizemore.
Wishful thinking here I’m afreaid. The reason we don’t have any internal fixes for LF and 1B is our horrible drafts and since we didn’t acquire a time machine in any of our salary dumps there isn’t much we can do about it except bite the bullet.
And there’s no way in hell we win 85 games next year – no way in hell. What we – that would be the Indians FO – should be focused on is building a sturdier, more robust base using low-dollar young players and forget about signing marginal high dollar fill-ins who will be long gone or injured when we’re ready to make a run.
Our best players wear suits.
I don’t know why you are so against the possibility of us winning 85 games. Even if we plod through in a mediocre fashion, lots of mediocre teams end up with 85 wins.
It’s not unreasonable to expect Choo to get back to 4 oWAR next year, or for Kipnis, now that we’ve seen him, to put up a 2 or 3, minimally, or Jimenez to get back to 4.
I look at this team and think there’s a 2 or 3 WAR second baseman on the bench, and a 5 WAR first baseman catching, and a left fielder playing second. Donald seems to be quite capable of starting at second; with this GB staff, you don’t need great range, as far as I can tell from looking at BABIPs, just sure hands, and Donald has made 3/4 of his errors trying to play shortstop. Santana is a great hitter in the making, and I don’t see the need to lose 100 games out of his next five years being a mediocre catcher. I’m happy to get a half of an oWAR from Marson while enjoying his superior defense. Kipnis looks like Brian Giles to me, and should make a fine LF.
I don’t think the Indians particularly need these 33- or 35-year-old FAs, with declining skills and expensive price tags, to contend with Detroit next year.
Remember, Chuck doesn’t flip his switch and become a raving rah-rah optimist until March.
by Jay on Dec 4, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This kind of goes against the whole acquiring Ubaldo Jimenez last season at the expense of three pitching prospects (I know..), unless it was to flip him for better prospects (which it is not). I don’t think acquiring D. Lowe indicates they are going all in for next season, but I also don’t think it indicates that they aren’t. As much as you point towards what you expect the Indians record to be next season. This division remains an open division. To not position yourself to take advantage of that would be extremely detrimental to the overall goal.
We have 7 out of 9 position with good solutions and upside, and the suggestion is to blow it all up because we don’t have a LF or 1B, arguably the easiest positions to fill. If the ownerships shares that belief, it ought to sell the team.
We are in the fortunate position that we are paying market rates on only two players, Hafner and Sizemore. Everyone else is under control for less than they could make on the open market. We are young. Outside of Hafner, our most grizzled everyday (?) players are Sizemore and Choo at 29. Everyone else is 27 or younger.
I’m all in this year. If we falter and have to sell assets at the deadline, so be it. This year seems like the right time to buy some high-value chips. Life is short.
Tigers? One injury to either Verlander or Cabrera and they are toast. Of course, all the pundits are saying you have to have the Pujols-like superstar if you are going to win it all—until Verlander or Cabrera gets injured, then they’ll be saying that you shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Dec 3, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Another way to put it is that a rebuilt team would be so many years from contention, it heavily tilts the scales toward going all-in now. I don’t see the minor league talent for us to build a team around Kipnis and Chisenhall earlier than 2016. At that point, you’re perpetually rebuilding. Have to go with the horses we’ve got now, imperfect though they may be.
Yep. It’s time to go out and upgrade the easy positions, like 1B and OF. Even if it is just marginal, even if it an older player, and even if you have to overpay.
These next two years should be fun!
At the same time, though, it’s an argument for putting Santana at first base.
The argument for keeping him at catcher isn’t about 2011, it’s about long-term strategic value. For a one-year window, you deploy your assets as best you can for one season. For a multi-year window, you deploy assets for long-term value.
If we’re looking at a two-year window, therefore, it makes sense to worry less about how valuable Santana the First Baseman will be in 2014, because who cares about 2014 right now?
by Jay on Dec 6, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
While the drafting has been an issue, I don’t think you can focus on those positions while ignoring that we now seemingly have solutions at 2B, 3B and in the rotation because of our drafting. If were going to wait for 9 young stars-in-the-making to come up together, we may be waiting forever.
And this team won 80 games last year with a down season from Choo, and partial seasons of Kipnis, Chisenhall and Jimenez. How is 85 not only not likely, but not even possible?
Huh? Are you the Dolan’s personal accountant or something or do you have Moneyball on reruns? It always amuses me when fans talk about payroll levels as if they are the one’s writing the checks. Is $40m some kind of magic number, while the Twins payroll is $100m+? How about this approach: build the team with the nucleus that won us 80 games last year. Saying in December that we should dump Hafner, Carmona, and Sizemore essentially means this coming season is all for naught which I absolutely refuse to believe. This kind of thinking leads to perpetual rebuilding franchises which I refuse to believe/accept we are one of them, a la the Mariners who have not been to the playoffs in 10 years yet are always rebuilding. Why does adding payroll mean we’ll be mediocre? What evidence is there that supports that? Seems to me that if we upgrade at least 2 bats and add another quality reliever and perhaps another starter, yes that will increase payroll but it will also improve the team. A team built upon Asdrubal, Santana, Choo, the rooks Kipnis/Chisenhall, the oldies Sizemore/Hafner plus dynamite pitching Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin and a lockdown pen, we got something good going here; spend some extra money on a trade acquisition and quality bat we have a World Series contender as far as I can tell. Time to invest for us fans and the players is what I’m talking about, Dolan’s!
by AlkiTribesman on Dec 4, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
A team built upon Asdrubal, Santana, Choo, the rooks Kipnis/Chisenhall, the oldies Sizemore/Hafner plus dynamite pitching Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin and a lockdown pen, we got something good going here; spend some extra money on a trade acquisition and quality bat we have a World Series contender as far as I can tell.
This is too obscenely optimistic, even for me.
The fans who “talk about payroll levels as if they are the one’s [sic] writing the checks” are the ones who understand that resources are finite.
Chuck wants the Indians to conserve their resources because he wants the Indians to win, and he believes the Indians can’t win if they waste their resources. Most folks here agree with that idea, while often disagreeing (vehemently even) on the specifics.
by Jay on Dec 6, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
OK, well I don’t agree with that idea one bit. Please explain to me why the resources are finite? Why do people take the team’s word on blind faith? I ask again, are you the Dolan’s personal accountant? Adding a quality player at a cost could bring in more wins which in turn could bring in more fans, revenue, playoff appearances. I think unless a fan is the team accountant, it does them better to stop playing banker and PR rep and instead think outside the box.
by AlkiTribesman on Dec 8, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
So here’s what Hoynes has for the day:
#Indians one of 9 teams to express interest in free agent Casey Blake. Like him as backup at 1B, 3B, LF, RF. Plus he hits right-handed.
Also of interest (to me at least):
According to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, Hiroki Kuroda is ‘’considering all options,’’ including signing with another MLB team regardless of location or returning to Japan to pitch for the Hiroshima Carp.
This is a change from the previously thought “LA or Japan” scenario. I wonder if we’ve talked with him—we were reportedly interested at the deadline.
The sad thing is, Casey Blake is an upgrade at 1b. and 3b.
They should do it. But also sign a real 1b. I’m all for Casey Kotchman.
2/40 for pujols
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 3, 2011 11:29 PM EST reply actions
did I do that right? two years at $40 million per is what i meant.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 3, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
could this be an actual FA strategy? vastly overpaying if we can keep years to a minimum for our set contention windows?
or more likely players just wouldn’t be interested. still it’s a thought. kind of.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 4, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
We’re not the first to think of it. But as long as someone is offering $200 million, it won’t matter.
by Jay on Dec 6, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
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