Cliff Lee Trade: Perception, Reality, Carrasco
Twice in the last week I read toss-off sentences maligning the deal that Mark Shapiro made when he sent Cliff Lee to Philadelphia. Both were written by "smart" sportswriters: Joe Sheehan, formerly of BP, and Steven Goldman, current editor at BP. I don't put "smart" in quotation marks to indicate that Joe Sheehan or Steve Goldman aren't actually intelligent; I'm just trying to say it's a category they're in, not an actual statement on their intellects. Both are the kind of guys who sit around and make fun of Short Hops.
In his March 8 newsletter (that's Vol. III, No. 15 in Sheehan's oddly academic journal like numbering system), Sheehan analyzed what Ben Francisco might mean to the Phillies season, especially in light of uberprospect Dominic Brown's hurt hamate. Sheehan wrote:
In Brown's absence, right field will fall to Ben Francisco, 29, who has served as the Phillies' fourth outfielder since being acquired at the 2009 trade deadline from the Indians in exchange for four prospects. (Indians fans, avert your eyes: even if you completely ignore the left-handed starter the Phillies got in that same deal, the Phillies may still have won that trade.)
This doesn't make sense from any angle. Just a few of the reasons this is a totally unreasonable statement:
- I am 100% sure that the Indians could reacquire Ben Francisco in a one for one deal for either Jason Knapp or Carlos Carrasco, right now.
- I am 75% sure that the Indians could reacquire Ben Francisco in a one for one deal for Jason Donald.
- In the two years that Ben Francisco has played in Philadelphia, he has accumulated 1.2 WAR according to Baseball-Reference. During the same two years, three players the Indians received have reached the majors. According to B-Ref WAR, their contributions are: Carrasco—1.0, Marson—1.5, and Donald—0.8. Using the equivalent BP metric, WARP, Cleveland's trio wins again, 2.3 to 2.0.
- Ben Francisco will reach free agency in time for the 2014 season. Marson, Carrasco, and Donald will likely become free agents before the 2016 or 2017 seasons.
This list could be much longer. The only reasonable way to interpret Sheehan's statement, as far as I can tell, is to assume that Sheehan believes that over the next two seasons Francisco will be much, much more valuable than Carrasco, Marson and Donald will be, cumulatively, over the next five, both making up the current advantage Cleveland's trio holds and exceeding any value they bring to Cleveland in 2014, 2015, and 2016. All this, plus an implicit assumption that Jason Knapp never reaches the majors. In short, it's a ridiculous thing to write.
Goldman was more vague in his pronouncement on the trade:
The first Cliff Lee deal cost the Phillies four players, and though history will likely show that they got off cheaply, that’s still four pieces out of the farm system.
Well, this is at least more reasonable than Sheehan's analysis of Francisco. However, we can introduce some accuracy into how much value Lee brought to the Phillies in his first go-round—in fact, BP peddles a stat to do just that, the aforementioned WARP. Cliff's 2009 WARP with Philadelphia was 1.4 which, you may notice, is less than the value that the pieces from the deal have already returned to Cleveland. That's not a reasonable way to analyze this trade, though. The Phillies also got some currently unpromising pieces out of the M's farm system and, much more importantly, a World Series run, a huge resulting boost in ticketing and merchandising sales, and, of course, a productive and positive relationship with Lee that helped bring him back to Philadelphia.
Still, I don't think Goldman's statement makes much sense even when we take a sympathetic look at it. We're told that the Phillies got off "cheaply"—a term that invokes a comparison, but to what? What other team has traded away a pitcher of Lee's caliber and received a substantially better haul than what the Indians got? The only candidates I see are the subsequent Lee deals and this offseason's Zack Greinke trade.
Evaluating the Lee deals, the Indians edition looks like the best—as it should, since it was made when Lee had the most time left on his contract. The deal the Phillies made to move Lee is the copper standard for trading a Cy Young pitcher: it already looks like a sinkhole, just two years later. The Rangers deal is interesting and there's a good chance that it ends up being the best of the three, with some scouts still projecting Justin Smoak for stardom. However, the Indians are clearly ahead at the quarter turn, having delivered two Lee-landed players to the majors successfully in Carrasco and Donald. No player from the Rangers-M's deal has reached the majors and shown much: Smoak came up and struggled, Blake Beavan is considered an innings-eater in waiting but has yet to appear in the majors, Josh Lueke is a lights-out minor league reliever with an extremely checkered past, and Matt Lawson already turned into Aaron Laffey.
So, we're left with the Greinke trade, which is the best comp anyway. Greinke has two full years before free agency; when the Indians moved Lee, he had about one and a half. The Royals got back two players who appear ready to be major league role players with potential for more (Lorenzo Cain and Alcides Escobar), a major league reliever (Jeremy Jeffress), and a lottery ticket of a high upside arm (Jake Odorizzi). From where I sit, that looks a hell of a lot like the Indians deal: Cain and Donald are both guys who arrive as players ready for the majors with some potential to be more than just average contributors, Escobar and Marson both bring plus defense at key positons and big questions about the bat, Jeffress and Carrasco are pitchers with good stuff that nobody seems ready to bet the house on, and Odorizzi now and Knapp at the time of the trade have a lot in common. The Royals are probably ahead on Odorizzi-Knapp and the Indians are ahead on Carrasco-Jeffress, just by virtue of the starter-reliever comparison. All in all, looks like a wash to me.
Which brings me, merficully, to the point. The Indians got ripped at the time of the Cliff Lee trade and, since then, have been vindicated in some significant ways. The deal is by no means currently a second edition the Colon trade but it seems relatively obvious that the Indians found at least one major league player and one major league pitcher—that's a lot in the current trade market, whether we like it or not.
Also, there's an option for much more here—his name is Carlos Carrasco. Carrasco came to the Indians as a high-talent, high-maintenance player, supposedly lacking in the mental fortitude needed to transition is talent to the middle or front of a rotation. Carrasco's seven start run in Cleveland last year, with a 2.71 K:BB and an ERA of 3.83, was a first indication that Carrasco might be ready to make the jump to viable major league pitcher, something slightly north of Mitch Talbot. And, of course, at only 24 years old, Carrasco has a chance to be a special pitcher, the kind that makes trading away a year and a half of Cy Young performance at least somewhat palatable. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Carrasco will be a more valuable pitcher than Cliff Lee over the next five years. In fact, that's exactly what I think.
Yet, that's not the narrative on the Indians Cliff Lee trade. For whatever reason, it's a trade that writers, even 'smart' ones, are allowed to write off as a bust with little fanfare. There was a time when the Indians front office received entirely too much praise but, as that focus has moved to another franchise, the sudden appearance of a a line of argument that simply assumes the Indians front office is inept has been frustrating. Mark Shapiro screwed up in a lot of ways, well chronicled here and elsewhere, but Mark Shaprio rarely screwed up a veterans for prospects trade. I don't think he screwed this one up either.
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A simple rec didn’t feel like it did this article justice. A good thought expressed very well.
The persuasion is not inherent in the lobster.
One negative consequence of “smart” writers trafficking in this kind of reductive, mocking rhetoric is that doing so underwrites the unreflective cynicism of everyday Tribe fans. Many of them are so sure of various opinions (such as their opinion of the Lee trade) that they are fully resistant to thinking about it anymore.
Thanks for the piece. I always love when Paul C does his Carrasco vs Kyle Drabek comparisons to inject a little reality into the equation as well.
I did the newsletter thing with Sheehan until December but didn’t reup. I liked him in the early 2000’s with Prospectus but have kind of grown weary of his shtick (incessant breakdowns of a playoff game where a manager inserted his 5th best reliever in a key spot, why this free agent signing his awful, etc). Not that he’s wrong and not that he isn’t fact based. Just thing several folks have surpassed him.
Maybe he wrote “avert your eyes” because the rest of the sentence was going to be amazingly stupid.
The AL-NL gap is in play here as well. There is a 100% chance that the Phillies would swap Francisco for Donald. Donald is simply better than Francisco, man-to-man, this season, not just younger and on a more favorable contract. In the NL, he’d be more or less a lock for a starting job somewhere, and in the AL, Francisco would be getting scouted for a trade back to the NL.
Francisco is borderline bench in the AL and borderline starter in the AL. Donald is a starter in the NL and a borderline starter in the AL. It’s only because Donald is in the AL and Francisco is in the NL that they start to look equivalent.
by Jay on Mar 13, 2011 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Maybe he wrote "avert your eyes" because the rest of the sentence was going to be amazingly stupid.
Yeah, a witty incorrect sentence is never better than a correct sentence.
Putting aside team needs, if the Indians today wanted to deal Carlos Carrasco for Ben Francisco, are the Phillies going to even think a nanosecond before accepting it? Sheehan needs to quit relying on the narrative and actually look at reality. Carrasco isn’t a finished product yet, but he’s damn close, and has the potential to be a top-tier starter in the next couple years.
Yeah, I agree. The Phillies to make that trade with 100% certainty as well. The Sheehan quote is so unbelievably stupid I didn’t even want to address it in my post below.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Yep, as someone who hated the Lee trade at the time it was made, I really came around to it about a month ago.
I really do believe Carrasco ends up making the whole thing worth it. And Donald is so ridiculously underrated it’s not funny.
And then there’s Knapp!
And Marson!
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
A lot of words here, and they’re effective words. But in the end you could simply have written the following…
“I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that Carrasco will be a more valuable pitcher than Cliff Lee over the next five years. In fact, that’s exactly what I think.”
…and it would have been enough to thoroughly undress the writers you mention. If they disagree, they’ll have to explain why. If they agree, well, it speaks for itself.
Anyway, nicely done.
I don’t think Carrasco will be a more valuable pitcher than Lee over the next five years, and I’m not sure that Andrew does. They both have attrition to deal with, and while Lee is older, he also has a track record that’s vastly more/better — three-year average of 222 IP over 31 starts and a 2.98 ERA. All things considered, you’d take Cliff Lee this year and probably over five years
This is not, however, an apples-to-apples comparison. Lee is on a “discounted” guaranteed contract of $120 million. Carrasco is on a one-year, 400K guaranteed deal, with five one-year club options at costs of (approximately) 400K, 400K, 2.5M, 6.5M and 11.5M. Lee will cost his team an average $24 million per season for five years, while Carrasco is unlikely to make $24 million over the next six years combined and/or for his entire career.
Doesn’t value imply contract status? Not trying to be glib—seems like it ought to but sports discourse struggles to define ‘value’ clearly.
That was my thinking. But given the road Jay went down, I would just add that it’s even possible that Carrasco will be a better pitcher, value-be-damned. Not likely, but even the possibility nullifies the drivel spewing forth from these other writers.
Let’s see, we traded away Cliff Lee when he still had 1.5 years left on his contract. In return? A backup catcher, a third basemen in Donald who isn’t very good and will not be starting as soon as Chisenhall is ready, a pitcher that has shown little but may be a 3rd starter in Carrasco, and an injured pitcher in Knapp.
Yep the Indians sure made out in this deal. Let’s just admit that the deal wasn’t all that great instead of running front page piece after front page piece on how everyone has missed that this was a great trade for the Indians.
How would we have benefited from having Lee in 2009 and 2010? Worse draft position as we sucked only 80% of the time instead of all the time?
How will we benefit in 2011 and beyond? By your own admission, a possible #3 starter and backup infielder ( >0 ).
So just getting a warm body for Lee would be OK by you because that’s greater than zero?
I realize that the jury is still out on this trade and yes maybe it will look good if Carrasco becomes something decent. But right now it looks really bad and I’m tired of reading on this site about how it was a good trade when pretty much every other writer, including the smart guys at baseball prospectus, haven’t given it good marks.
If you’re tired of reading anything on this site, there’s an easy fix for that.
by afh4 on Mar 15, 2011 8:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like that that comment thread has a 10 post detour into the renovation status of the CSU student union.
And that there’s a ’95 ALDS game 1 game thread.
by YoDaddyWags on Mar 16, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that at least one of these 4 players should wind up being pretty good before the fact of their affordability is relevant, because there are lots of ways to find 3 or 4 warm bodies.
I am encouraged by Carrasco’s finish to last season, and I think they had the right idea in trading for Knapp. Marson’s defense is good. Donald isn’t really a 3B.
After we trade OCab to a contender at the deadline, we bring Chiz up to 3B and move Donald back to 2B. Voila – Donald not really a 3B problem solved.
"Magic would be getting productivity out of Crowe or Valbuena. I’ll admit we could use a little luck, but that’s not the same thing." - Jay
On Twitter at @grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Mar 15, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this plan. The only problem I see is that, well, it is Orlando Cabrera.
"Spring Training wins are good for the soul."
I guess that is the only hope for him then. His success in Cleveland depends on the failure of others. Play well enough to be traded or just be released.
"Spring Training wins are good for the soul."
There is room on this club for Kipnis, Chisenhall, Phelps and Donald — all of them — next season. Donald is the only one who can sub at shortstop, and Phelps is a switch-hitter.
As for being a starter, yes, Donald will have to be opportunistic. If he has a poor season, and if Chisenhall and Kipnis both excel and stay healthy, he likely won’t have another chance here for a while. But again, he’s our only young infielder (after Asdrubal) who can play shortstop.
I mean Orlando – I can’t see a future with him past June. I know that was most likely the general consensus on his signing, but I didn’t see it then as Chisenhall forcing the issue, I saw it as Kipnis or Phelps. I am rethinking that now.
"Spring Training wins are good for the soul."
I don’t necessarily see Chisenhall forcing the issue. Last season, he had an 801 OPS in Double-A — and it was solid but unspectacular across the board, contact, power, walk rate.
That does not suggest someone who is already a major league hitter, and it’s beyond outrageously dumb to think that 27 spring at-bats moves the needle on that. It is possible that, at age 22, he has an explosive jump in his hitting ability this season, but it’s only one of many possibilities and certainly not a probability.
I would probably project him for something like an 850 OPS in Columbus, which makes him a great, great prospect and not somebody that needs to be on the big-league roster.
True, I may be getting ahead of myself. Months ago I hadn’t even registered him as being as close as he is now, by the guidelines you just posted. I tend to get overly excited when prospects are further along than I previously thought.
"Spring Training wins are good for the soul."
Keith Law says he looks fantastic now and seemed to be baffled by speed changes last season. I still come back to, show me more than 27 AB. I don’t really know how a guy suddenly flips a switch and goes from “baffled” to amazing on something like adjusting to unpredictably changing pitch speeds.
When we talk about his AA-numbers and “flipping a switch,” aren’t we all forgetting that his season had a clear demarcation point? After he let his shoulder heal, he was a completely different hitter.
Now that’s still only half of a successful season at AA, so yeah, he should go back to AAA. Until about June 6 or so.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 17, 2011 6:49 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true to a degree. Chisenhall had 1 HR in April-May (140 PA), and 16 after June 1st (380 PA). His ISO, which was under .080 going into June, was over .200 the remainder of the season. Transform his April-May numbers into his “season average” numbers and he was right about .285/.365/.500, with 25 HRs.
Touche. Except that I think this is a bit more reasonable. April and May of last season were Chisenhall’s worst professional months, by far, in his career to date. From June on he was much better, but by no means out of line with what he had done previously (not a particularly elevated BABIP, ISO in line with career path, etc..).
For the record, I think the Indians had to forgo a better deal just to include Francisco.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 15, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions

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