Trivia - The United Nations of Cleveland Indians
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 8:01 AM EDT
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It's the last Friday before the regular season starts (Yay!), so let's get in a positive frame of mind. Who are the greatest Indians born in each nation (or, in a couple of cases, territory)? In this case "greatest" will be determined by Baseball-reference's career WARP while playing for the Indians.
- USA - Napolean 'Larry' Lajoie, 74.7
- Venezuela - Omar Enrique Vizquel, 28.6
- Dominican Republic - Manuel Aristedes Ramirez, 28.2
- Mexico - Roberto Francisco Avila, 28.0
- Cuba - Luis Tiant, 23.0
- Canada - Jeff Heath, 22.9
- Puerto Rico - Roberto Alomar, 20.6
- South Korea - Shin-Soo Choo, 18.2
- Netherlands - Rik Aalbert Blyleven, 17.7
- Nicaragua - Dennis Martinez, 11.4
- Virgin Islands - Jerry Browne, 4.9
- Panama - Einar Diaz, 4.5
- Switzerland - Otto Hess, 3.8
- Scotland - Tom Waddell, 2.3
- Italy - Mario Pieretti, 0.6
- Germany - Heinz Becker, 0.4
- Japan - Kazuhito Tadano, 0.3
- Spain - Bryan Oelkers, 0.2
- Czechoslovakia - Elmer Valo, 0.2
- Australia - Cam Cairncross, 0.1
- Bahamas - Tony Curry, -0.1
- Vietnam - Danny Graves, -0.4
- Indonesia - Tom Mastny, -0.5
- England - Ed Walker, -0.6
- Jamaica - Justin Masterson, -0.9
- Russia - Bill Cristall, -0.9
- Colombia - Jolbert Cabrera, -1.4
Two of these leaders are current members of the squad; by day two of the season, it is likely three will be, unless that #3 guy has an absolutely awful first game.
The list is sorted by decreasing WARP, so the names should get more obscure as go you lower down. There are a couple of notable exceptions which have been drilled into our heads by excessive repetition though.
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by day two of the season, it is likely three will be, unless that #3 guy has an absolutely awful first game
Jamaica = Masterson
Yes, he’s one of the two leaders currently on the 25-man roster. He’s not the #3 guy I was referring to in the quoted section though.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
You continue to outdo yourself with these trivia posts.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Mar 25, 2011 9:31 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Nicaragua = Dennis Martinez
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Hard to believe that Spain is higher than Indonesia on this list. But when a guy has one shining moment (Mastny from Indonesia in 2007) during the team’s best season in the 00’s, it pales any performance from the team’s best season in the ’80s (Oelkers from Spain in 1986).
In the end, Mastny really bottomed out in 2008.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
I don’t remember which game of the ALCS it was, but that 10th (?) inning Mastny pitched against the heart of the Red Sox order was pure epic. And if I remember right the game thread went from “Oh, ****, game over,” to “**********************!!!!!.”
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 25, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Good memory.
That was a slobberknocker of a game. We sleepwalked through Game 1, but came out with a lot more urgency in game 2. Mastny set down Ortiz, Ramirez and Lowell in the bottom of the 10th.
My memory of that game was the feeling that Carmona was getting squeezed with his pitches. I was soooo frustrated with the walks, and it didn’t seem like Fausto was missing by much (if at all).
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Mastny was magnificent in that game.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Bryan Oelkers was born in Spain. That one came as a surprise to me.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Let’s go with Omar/Venezuela; Manny/DR; Bobby Avila/Mexico; and Luis Tiant/Cuba. And then I’ll ruminate some more.
And Choo from South Korea….and from the clue, it must be Carmona that is close to taking the lead for the Dominican Republic.
Colombia is Jolbert Cabrera, soon to be replaced by Orlando Cabrera.
Professional Lurker. Non-Baseball Posting Specialist.
That’s right. I don’t think Orlando could possibly produce a -1.5 WARP in the first game of the season, so he’ll take over from his younger brother after his first appearance.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Switzerland = Otto Hess. BTW, when Hess played for Cleveland, the team was known as the “Bronchos”, or at least that was the unofficial name the players were trying to establish for a team name instead of the “Bluebirds” – which was the name before Cleveland became the “Naps”…
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
I’ve always thought that, in the Lajoie tradition, during Tris Speaker’s era they should have called the team the Spokes.
by YoDaddyWags on Mar 25, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems like a perfect marketing ploy for Cleveland – given the problems with the Indian mascot, the team can simply nickname the team after the the most popular player each season. We will run into the problem of renaming the team at the trade deadline when the guy is traded, but the team could make a mint selling new jerseys and hats every seasons.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
During the Lou Boudreau era, the team would have been called the Shufflefeet, by the way.
by YoDaddyWags on Mar 25, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s nothing but the naked truth.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s getting embarrassing that we haven’t acquired a more productive Japanese player than Tadano.
by Jay on Mar 25, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Depends on how you define productive.
by odradek on Mar 26, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t know, that’s an awfully expensive market. How many bargains can you think of off the top of your head? I bet you’re counting on one hand, in 15+ years.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 26, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is, most of those replacement level players cost millions. We can just call Jason Michaels if we want to, and save on the long distance charges.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re saying, replacement level players are marked up when they’re coming from Japan? On what are you basing that?
I think Ichiro inflated the market for a while. There were a few memorable busts—the Fat Toad comes to mind—but there have been guys like Izagawa who have been pretty good (and undervalued?). There is also the built-in licensing fee that made Matsuzaka overpriced. I think it took the market a while to figure out the value of Japanese players.
Izagawa?
Not Kei Igawa, he of the Yankees who in 2 seasons mustered an ERA+ of 68? Irabu was much more servicable.
I would think that Asia/Japan would be a market more small market teams would try to exploit if the posting fees aren’t very high.
Why would replacement players come over if they’re not over-priced? Replacement players should make under a million dollars. They’re pre-arb or waiver wire pickups. Has anyone—other than Tadano, who came over basically as an amateur—left Japan at that price?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
All athletes aspire to compete at the highest level. With the possible exception of Ichiro, Japanese ballplayers are sacrificing a lot of money to play here.
Fine. You still haven’t answered my ultimate question. Has anyone who has left Japan for the United States, excepting Tadano, accepted a contract befitting a replacement level player?
Nor have you countered the actual argument, which is that players from Japan are always overpriced, with the extenuating circumstances—like being blackballed from the league—constituting the exceptions. It’s a poor market for the Indians. An Iwamura level of production is only valuable if it is divorced from an Iwamura level of (compensation + posting fees). They should not be investing in Japan. Let the large markets have this truffle, and focus on the draft, Latin America, and possibly other emerging markets that haven’t caught our attention yet.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Ichiro produced 17.1 WAR over three seasons, for a $13 million posting fee and $14 million in direct salary. Even ten years ago, that was a good deal. Pretty sure we paid about the same money for Chuck Finley.
Having said that, the point you’re really making is that all of these guys are free agents, and their cost is commensurate with the rest of the free agent market. The Red Sox paid about $100 million for Matsuzaka, which is about the same as he would have received directly as a free agent.
So to the extent that the great majority of free agents are bad options for a club like the Indians, and to the extent that Japanese players generally command salaries commensurate with the free agent market … yes, of course, the Indians should not play much in this market.
Nor have they, aside from making the kind of low-mid-level calculated risk that they make with American players. Oldberto = Masa, and Masa was a bad idea only in the exact same way that Oldberto was. I don’t see it as a quirk in the market specifically for Japanese players.
This is exactly what I’m saying… and why it doesn’t bother me at all that Kaz Tadano is their most productive Japanese-born player.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 28, 2011 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions
2010 free agent signings by WAR:
1.7 Russ Branyan
1.4 Austin Kearns
1.0 Shelley Duncan
0.1 Mark Grudzialanek
I’m just saying, we can expect at least this level of production from our very best acquisition even from Japan.
Is this a coaching/scouting issue? The Indians used to have good Japan connections with Leron Lee and Charlie Manuel.
The costs of scouting major leaguers, or Grudzielanek, are not equivalent to scouting Japan.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 29, 2011 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions
On the one hand, sure, but on the other hand, either we’re there or we’re not, no?
I still say, if we’re going to sign Japanese players, we should expect a comparable return to the free agent market. The fact that it hasn’t happened so far is a reflection of small sample size and perhaps a learning curve.
Or, so, possibly we’re not signing any more for a while.
Yeah, it all comes down to the idea that I’d rather they not bother scouting Japanese professionals at all.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 29, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
All athletes aspire to compete at the highest level.
This just simply isn’t true, and I’m surprised you would be that naive. The easiest example is the current struggle between the NHL and the KHL. Many players have left for the inferior Russian league because they would get payed more money. Basketball players have left the NBA to play in Europe for larger salaries. Just look at what happened with the NFL and AFL. Players have proven that more often than not, they just want the biggest contract.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Apr 4, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
They get paid more money in the KHL because they have already demonstrated — to everyone including themselves — that they can play at the highest level. Of course, at some point, everyone has a price, but a rival league has to establish substantial credibility even before they can start buying the competition.
Impressive. I don’t remember hearing that back in the day. Did they mention it as often as Mastny/Indonesia or Graves/Vietnam?
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
You know what you’re talking aboot.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
The four remaining are pretty obscure.
Italy – a relief pitcher from the 50’s
Czechoslovakia – RF, 1950’s
Bahamas – Pinch runner, 1960’s
England – SP, 1900’s
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Mar 25, 2011 11:31 AM EDT reply actions
Czechoslovakia – Elmer Valo
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Didn’t realize he played—33 PAs!—for the Tribe.
by YoDaddyWags on Mar 25, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Wasn’t Steve Karsay from Jamaica?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops, Flushing. Disregard.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I suspect that folks are in such a hurry to read and participate in these that they forget to “rec” them …
… and that as a result, a post that ordinarily would have 10 recs has only 1 …
… and that now that I’ve pointed this out, it will soon have 10 recs.
Nobody recs anything anymore.
An there are no game threads in the effort to eliminate, as Adam put it, “clutter”.
This is the cleanest, cleverest SBN site in existence, but you wouldn’t know it from the last few weeks.
What is going on around here?
The ST game thread issue is difficult for us. It doesn’t make much sense to have them as front page posts, since so few ST games even have video. We have tried to slide them over here as fanposts since this part of the site isn’t getting much traffic but, per your comments, that may not be working for everyone. Frankly, the site is a lot easier to run in-season, although it’s a lot more work.
Is there anything else we’re messing up that we don’t realize? I ask that question sincerely, not passive aggressively. It’s sometimes hard for me (and maybe other mods, I don’t know) to guess at how the site is actually being used by the community.
I don’t know if anything has changed on your end. It just seems like traffic is down. That is on the users more than the mods. Were there not active game threads during Spring last year? My schedule is different this Spring, so maybe I’m just imagining a more vibrant ST atmosphere on here in past years.
I was speculating to myself that because so many people are getting multiple Twitter feeds that it may keep them from coming here for breaking info. If they do, there isn’t always an active thread, so they may not spend as much time posting as they might have in the past.
I’m not saying ST game threads are an issue. The absence of them seems like a result of the larger quietude.
I don’t have a recollection of what traffic was like at this time of year in the past. The Indians blogosphere has always been relatively lively and it’s gotten more lively, with a new big boy on the block in WFNY offering a place where more casual fans can more easily hook into the Tribe, as compared to here. The twitter point you make is a good one as well.
I know SBN wishes we posted more front page stuff here, and I know that the authors wish they had more time to write. The pressure within the blogosphere is to simply post all the time, a lot, and I understand the root of that desire as a reader of other blogs. However, as an author, I often feel that there’s simply not much to write about—so much of what’s written on baseball blogs is speculation on things that are about to be announced, meaning you could just forget the speculation and wait a week for the real thing, or sort of mindless analytical predictions. Hopefully, some more interesting stuff will start to happen soon and stoke the creative fires.
Is there a way to have expandable front page posts so more appear on the front page screen? That might enable easier access and more commentary.
I often scroll down very far to see if there’s anything new that I’ve missed out on, but sometimes it’s easy to ignore new comments to older posts.
Well, we can always tuck stuff under the fold. We try to do a two paragraph tuck, generally, but when there’s not a lot of stuff going up on the front page, I’ll sometimes let a whole article out there. Also, when you put a poll on something, that can’t go under the fold.
You can also hide things, and we’ve considered doing that with ST gamethreads—just evaporating them after the game ends, although they remain searchable. But there’s likely some people who want to read them substantially after the fact.
Slightly off topic, but I’d like to volunteer my services as a copy editor to anyone who writes here. I’m Scripps School of Journalism trained. I find grammar and punctuation slips distracting, especially in the front-page pieces. They’re pretty egregious sometimes, though I blame that on the format more than I do on the authors.
That’s kind of you. I know that I sometimes make embarrassing errors, although I try to make sure I’ve taken at least a second or two to go back over the piece. However, I don’t think I, or likely any of the authors, would be able to work with a copy editor. We already have a lot of trouble getting pieces finished and posted in anything resembling a timely fashion and adding another step that that process doesn’t seem viable.
If I had time to work with a copy editor, then I’d probably have time to just do better copy editing myself. Often, the whole window of time for me to get a post done and up is a couple of hours. If I don’t complete it in that time, it’s likely not getting published for another day or two. In other words, it’s not an (extreme) lack of skill so much as it’s a lack of time, at least for me. Certainly, I could be a lot better writer on this site, and I regret the mistakes I make. All I can really say is that I’ll try to do better, though I don’t know how realistic that is. My writing for this site is nearly always lower on the list of things I need to write/edit most seriously.
What about giving her (or somebody else besides the mods) editing privileges after things are posted? As I write this, the top post on the front page has a typo.
by cleveland teamer on Mar 30, 2011 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Granted, that post was a member contribution, but still, those sometimes deserve copy editing when they’re promoted to the main page.
by cleveland teamer on Mar 30, 2011 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
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