Game 47: Red Sox 14, Indians 2
by Ryan on May 25, 2011 4:09 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
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PrintThe Browns managed a late safety to get on the scoreboard, but...oh, we're talking about a baseball game?
MItch Talbot may have been healthy, but he certainly wasn't effective. He gave up 7 runs in the first inning, and was kind enough to soak up a couple more innings before leaving. Hitters are the ultimate judge of a pitcher's effectiveness, and judging why Boston's lineup did against Talbot, he was as ineffective as you can get. They reached base 14 times (12 hits, 2 walks) in three innings, BUT (if you must look for a silver lining) only two of those hits were for extra bases. Talbot's going to get more starts only because the Indians can't option him to the minors, though with the team doing so well, another start or two of this ilk could mean a move to the bullpen.
The Indians trailed 8-0 after Talbot left, and while 99 times out of 100 a team won't come back from that kind of deficit, teams have made those types of comebacks before. After Frank Herrmann left, the game was over. Herrmann pitched just as badly as Talbot, a rare confluence of separate but similar suckiness in one game. He gave up just 6 hits, but he made those hits count; three were homers, and the other three were mere doubles.
In the midst of all this carnage, Boston starter Jon Lester had an easy go of it, getting six easy innings in before calling it a day. He led 14-0 when he left. The Indians avoided a shutout by scoring twice in the eighth inning.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Duncan | .006 | Talbot | -.447 |
| Choo | .004 | LaPorta | -.014 |
| Herrmann | -.010 |
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Really, take out the words “Recap to come” and you’ve pretty well said just about everything that needs to be said.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
If Talbot is this bad in his next start, move him into Germano’s former role immediately. Hermann should be optioned outta here today.
by jhon on May 25, 2011 7:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think that if he gets a look, it will be because of injury, not because of demotion.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 25, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Got up at 5.40am to watch, was back in bed at 5.46am!
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on May 25, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
I agree.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 25, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The red sox World Series wins should be disqualified in addition to all subsequent games that Ortiz “the steroids user” cheats in.
Good luck Tribe in Tampa! Put this one behind!
How bout: David “Became Goliath” Ortiz.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 25, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should get a load of the Red Sox announcers. I tuned in to Joe Castiglione and gang. Shoulda’ heard the piece on Bartolo Colon’s reconditioned shoulder, with dark hints at whatever juice was included in the injections. Added bonus, nice juxtaposition a few minutes later into how in the world Adrubal Cabrera could have all these homers. Very slick.
by Bogalusa Bomber on May 26, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Sad. It isn’t like he is the world’s smallest guy. He may be a defense first middle infielder, but the dude is 6’0" tall.
RALLY SIG
He’s bigger than their garden gnome playing second base.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on May 26, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My first wife was bigger than PEDroia. ’Course, she also hit 5th on my softball team.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on May 26, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we’d all be okay if you skipped the recap on this one. Especially those of us who lived through it the first time.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 25, 2011 7:08 PM EDT reply actions
The wheels really fell off of the guillotine today.
by kedda13 on May 25, 2011 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
rec
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 26, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is it assumed Talbot will continue have games like this? It was his first one after a DL stint. Can he pitch a couple more before we move him to the pen or cut him?
He was OK last year and pitched a pretty good game against the Angels this year.
these.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 25, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Are many people assuming this?
I don’t think we can assume much of anything, except that he was not ready to pitch that first inning.
The people calling to switch him to bullpen (several in this thread, I think), appear to be assuming that.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 26, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I suggested that, but at the time I had assumed a healthy Alex White.
by jhon on May 27, 2011 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, I give Talbot a pass on this one – not sure if he wouldn’t have gotten another AAA start if White hadn’t gone down. It may take him another couple starts to get the feel back – it took him a while in ST to click, and the same may be true now. Lost in the discussion is how his arm felt coming back, which is the main thing. I believe he said he felt no discomfort, so good.
Herrmann, on the other hand, is in midstream working on developing something other than the fastball and probably needs to do that in Columbus and put up some decent numbers before being called up again. Like Germano, he can be DFA’d, get Putnam or Hagadone on the 40, and let him work it out there rather than here.
He wasn’t even mediocre last year, he doesn’t miss bats, and he gives up a lot of baserunners. At least, that’s why I assume it.
Oh, come on, he was mediocre last year. He wasn’t sub-mediocre.
It happens that Talbot’s worst stretch of the 2010 season was in August, immediately after he returned from the DL, when he gave up 17 runs in 19.2 IP.
ERA by month: 2.05, 4.91, 4.11, 4.94, 7.78, 2.89
WHP by month: 1.18, 1.36, 1.47, 1.69, 2.29, 1.18
K/BB by month: 0.64, 1.54, 1.38, 1.57, 0.62, 2.60
Poor word choice on my part. Average would have been better. His ERA+ was 88, other than April and two starts in September, his ERA was 5.13, WHIP was 1.60, and he allowed and OPS of .803. He was, at the very, very best, slightly below average.
Agreed. He has some potential but he wasn’t good at all last year.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on May 26, 2011 12:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
To be fair, in ’09 he pitched 68.1 innings.In ’10, he pitched 171.1. It should come as no surprise that he put up a 5.40 ERA in August and September.
Well, you really have to cleave August and September there: in July and August, Talbot had 0 QS in 9 starts and a Game Score average of 39; the rest of the year, including September, he had 11/19 QS and a GSc average above 50.
So he’s a lot like Tomlin then?
BTW fwembt did you ever find out who Earl Valtman is?
Our best players wear suits.
I actually haven’t, I was on vacation for eight days though, and since I came back there are a lot fewer Cleveland cops to catch up with.
Tomlin doesn’t miss bats either, but his control is considerably better than Talbot’s. That said, his babip is .175, so he is due for that to normalize.
I’m more concerned about Herrmann, even as the last option out of the bullpen, than I am about Mitch Talbot right now. I wouldn’t be opposed to trying Huff out as a garbage long-man once he gets healthy.
Yeah, his game in LAAofANA was really good.
by JulioBernazard on May 26, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Also: Carrasco. Went from THUD to /whimper.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on May 26, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys, I’ve been thinking about it… I don’t have time to look it up, but I feel like most of our losses this year have come while wearing the script jerseys with Wahoo caps. Anybody know how/care to look into this deeper?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
I really don’t know why I looked this up, but I did. There have been five different uniform combinations, given that they wear the blue script both at home (with the blue and red Wahoo) and on the road (with the blue Wahoo):
White Script/Wahoo 9-3 Blue Script/Home Wahoo 2-1 Blue Script/Road Wahoo 6-4 White Block/Red C 7-2 Grey Block/Blue C 6-7
This suggests at first glance that the road greys are the truly unlucky uniforms, which may be why they haven’t been worn for six straight road games. To remove the road bias, we can look at the percentage of home or road losses each combination represents. The White Script combo is performing as expected. It’s been worn in half of the home games and reflects half of the home losses. The White Block and Road Blues are luckier than average, with positive differentials of 4% and 7% respectively. The Home Blues and Road Greys are bad luck, with negative differentials of 4% and 7% respectively.
by FredOx on May 26, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
I used the pictures that accompany LGT game recaps. Didn’t actually take that long to plug it into Excel.
Looks like there wasn’t much to my theory then. You’re the man, by the way. Totally owe you a beer if we ever cross paths in person.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on May 26, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve always kind of wondered whether teams keep track of this given the pervasiveness of superstition among baseball players.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 26, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if they do, but the fact is that the Indians wore the grey uniforms in 12 of the first 13 road games, and only 1 of the last 10.
I’m a huge fan as well, and I rarely like gray unis.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on May 26, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
WaRIO
Wins above Replacement Indians Outfit
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on May 26, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was thinking more along these lines:
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on May 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Teams tend to do worse on the road anyways, no matter what uniform they wear.
And the home block lettered unis are cream, not white.
I know that. Sometimes symmetry is more important than accuracy.
by FredOx on May 26, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
the game recap from Over the Monster gives an impartial description of how this game (1st inning) went terribly wrong for the Indians. It does not suggest that Talbot was not bad, but does suggest that his ineptitude was aided & abetted by Fortuna and his teammates. With a little luck on his side, Talbot could have escaped the first only giving up 2 runs. It was just not our day.
recap:
The first inning tells the tale today:
Jacoby Ellsbury slapped a flat 89 MPH fastball back up the middle, welcoming Mitch Talbot back from a month-long DL stint with a ringing single.
Dustin Pedroia put a charge in a 2-2 fastball for his first home run since April 15. 2-0 Sox
Adrian Gonzalez places a ground ball perfectly, having it squeeze past two infielders for a single.
David Ortiz smashes the first pitch he sees right back at Talbot and off of his glove. Jack Hannahan’s desperation throw pulls Matt LaPorta off the bag, and Papi reaches safely.
Jed Lowrie grounds into a fielders choice, beating out the double play at first.
Carl Crawford makes loud contact and lines one to center to score Gonzalez. 3-0 Sox
Jarrod Saltalamacchia hits a hard ground ball that finds a hole, letting Jed Lowrie come around when Shin-Soo Choo bobbles the ball in right. 4-0 Sox
Mike Cameron hits a sacrifice fly to score Crawford. 5-0 Sox
Drew Sutton’s pop-fly drops perfectly between the infield and outfield, scoring Salty. 6-0 Sox
Jacoby Ellsbury picks up his second line drive and second hit of the game.
Dustin Pedroia gets on top of the ball, but manages to find the hole between second and third to bring Drew Sutton home. 7-0 Sox
By the time Adrian Gonzalez grounded out to end the inning, the game was already over.
Yeah, a lot of solid contact, but a lot balls found holes too it seems. Fortunately for me, I missed the first.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 26, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Jed Lowrie grounds into a fielders choice, beating out the double play at first.
LaPorta seems to lack confidence in his throws. He lobbed the ball to second on this DP attempt. It’s not really fair to blame him completely for the DP that wasn’t turned on Tuesday when Hannahan dropped the ball, but if the throw is chest high instead of at his knees, it’s probably two outs instead of none. He air mailed a throw into center field a few days ago as well.
HIs glove work has been really good, but I hope he gets over this throwing problem soon.
"I just try and keep it simple. I could elaborate, but that would be ironic." - Jeremy Sowers
In that game against the Reds (the friday game where Carerra won it on the bunt single) Laporta had that terrible attempt at turning two where he threw the ball into left-field. That wasn’t that long ago and could easily be in his head still.
It’s probably been a slight case of the yips and he will get over it quickly. I don’t think there’s any good reason to think he’s been “Knoblauched”.
I'm emotional about my glove...
Getting “knoblauched” is a rarity, many players go through a string of bad defensive plays at in a period of time and don’t develop the mental problem that Knoblauch did.
Damn, Buster Posey got Santana’d last night. Hope the dude’s all right.
After seeing Santana, Mauer’s decline, and now Posey, I’m basically at the point where I want these guys playing somewhere other than behind the plate. Screw the idea of positional value. . . drop in some spidery guy, glove-first guy like one of the Molinas (or in our case, Marson) behind the plate and protect your investment.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 26, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions
“spidery, glove-first guy.” What is it about this forum that makes me lose my ability to type a coherent sentence?
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 26, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I had a similar thought during the first Boston game. You wonder if our best lineup isn’t with Marson behind the plate and Santana/Laporta sharing 1b duties and spelling Hafner at DH periodically.
I like a lineup that features Santana, Pronk, and Porty with Marson on the bench.
by JulioBernazard on May 26, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Or should Cs just be taught to give up single runs in games that don’t have all that much meaning?
by JulioBernazard on May 26, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Posey was injured trying to block the go-ahead run in the 12th inning of that game.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 26, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
He could just not block the plate until he actually has the ball. The swipe-tag seems pretty effective.
Don’t wait for the ball standing in front of the plate. Stand in front of the plate when you have the ball.
Steel Nick
I’m pretty sure that is the rule anyway. You can’t block the base unless you have the ball. I could be wrong.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 27, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope that someone who umpires at higher levels than I will correct me if I’m wrong here, but the way I’ve been instructed to call it is that if there is any obstruction of the runner, the runner should be awarded the base. This applies the same at home as it does to any other base.
Rule 7.06(a): If a play is being made on the Obstructed runner, then the ball is dead and all runners should advance without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction.
The note to rule Rule 7.06 (b) is the relevant citation here:
NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.
Bill James has a discussion of this in his Historical Baseball Abstract, from the 1980s, in which he noted MLB’s long-standing attempt to stop the practice of blocking the plate; there was a comment from a league official from about 1922, quoted either in James or elsewhere, that despite the rules, blocking the plate was something catchers seemed compelled to do.
by YoDaddyWags on May 27, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess the argument could be made that a catcher awaiting a throw may block the plate because he’s fielding a ball, but that seems shaky.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 27, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
It is important to note that the collision between Cousins and Posey happened not because Posey was setup blocking the baseline and plate (he wasn’t) but because Cousins decided to cross from the foul side of the basepath into fair territory and ram him rather than slide to the outside. Posey was set in fair territory, off of and in front of home plate as the throw arrived. Cousins, seeing that the throw had him beat alters his course right at the edge of the batting circle (approx. 10-12 feet away) and ultimately plows into the catcher before the swipe or his body had been put across the basepath.
Now, you can argue that because homeplate, like all other bases is completely within fair territory, the runner must cross to the fair side of the line at some point to step on it. And while this is true, there is also a big difference between a runner who has no choice but to collide with a catcher — because they are right on the plate or have their body/leg(s) across the baseline/plate — and a runner who sets out to make themself into a full-force physical battering ram rather than run through the play or slide.
So, in this instance there was no blocking or obstructing the plate before the arrival of the ball or for that matter at any point. It was the runner who made the decision to put himself on a path of direct contact and violent collision.
Was Cousins playing dirty? Well, evidently he has tradition on his side despite whatever other actual rules may apply.
What is my point? I’m not sure. This is one of those things where there are well established rules and then an accepted tradition that contradicts those rules. Would I want to see something like a softball league “Pete Rose” rule put into effect? Where if the catcher is fielding the ball or already has possession of the ball at home plate, the runner MUST slide or give themself up. Obviously that would suck in pro baseball but I do feel a good case can be made to adjust what is acceptable behavior by both runner and catcher.
I'm emotional about my glove...
This is a very unfortunate injury and Cousins feels as bad as anyone (except Posey). The consensus on both teams seems to be that this was a clean attempt to maximize the probability of his team winning the game. It seems analogous to taking out the second baseman to break up a double play. There is no intent to injure, but the fielder has some responsibility to protect himself.
"I just try and keep it simple. I could elaborate, but that would be ironic." - Jeremy Sowers
That may be the case, but I don’t understand why runners don’t just truck over shortstops on their way into second base to “knock the ball loose” or to avoid the double play. Home plate is no different a base than any other.
I think they slide because otherwise shortstops would put the ball between their eyes. My point is that they do go out of their way to collide with the fielder to avoid having the batter thrown out. This is acceptable as long as they are close enough to the base. The infielders learn to avoid a serious collision.
"I just try and keep it simple. I could elaborate, but that would be ironic." - Jeremy Sowers
What I’m pointing out is that Posey, despite having his legs in a “bad” position, was setup to provide protection for himself by being up in front of the plate so he could swipe back and to the side. He was not on-top of the plate nor did he have any part of his body stretched out across it or the third baseline. Where should he have been? 6 feet in front/behind the plate? He has to be somewhere in close proximity to make the play.
While the intent may not be to seriously injure it is certainly the case that one would expect the person being bulldozed to suffer bodily harm. The case is you have a runner purposefully putting their body into a position to both deliver maximum impact and provide self protection while another player, all but gets blind-sided, mostly stationary and looking away in part from the impending collision. What exactly is a catcher supposed to do in that situation to give their body protection?
It is not like sliding (in proximity to the bag…Heh) to take out the second baseman or shortstop. Is it allowed for the runner, with the baseman coming off the bag to throw, to charge right into the fielder with as much force as he can muster?
I'm emotional about my glove...
I agree that a collision at home plate is a potentially dangerous play, for both the catcher and the runner. I am simply defending Cousins in that he was only trying to knock the ball loose to score an important run. The catcher has to be near the plate to make the play, and if the ball was going to beat him to the plate, then knocking the ball loose is an acceptable baseball play. Avoiding the tag is also an option, and better if it has an equal probability of success. As much as I hate to see anyone get hurt, I don’t see that a rule change is needed.
"I just try and keep it simple. I could elaborate, but that would be ironic." - Jeremy Sowers
There is no MLB rule that allows for a runner to barrel over a fielder with the intent to dislodge a fielded or thrown ball; not at home plate, not at any other base nor anywhere else on the field.
There are clear rules for interference and obstruction calls and the penalties for violation of those rules.
The “tradition” of baseball has allowed for both the catcher and the runner in these occurrences to ignore the rules without penalty. Thus we have injuries to both that needn’t occur. If MLB doesn’t have a problem with this then they should change the game rules to specifically allow for it rather than go on with fans and professionals alike under the mistaken belief that it is “legal” “clean” and “part of the game.”
While it may not be “seen” as dirty that doesn’t make it right.
I'm emotional about my glove...
But at what point can you say ‘this guy hits too well to play catcher?’ 120 OPS+, 100? What happens if Hafner is healthy and you have three guys who look like they can hit well to play between C/1B/DH? Do you worry that one might get hurt and won’t be able to play, so you just don’t play one anyway? What if your guy is Victor Martinez and you can get a solid 6 years of catching out of him?
I understand the sentiment, but you can’t be so risk averse that you’re putting yourself close to a situation similar to where you would be if the guy actually was hurt.
I’m probably being a little bit too knee-jerk with my reaction to the Posey injury. I guess if I have a point, it’s that teams might want to consider sacrificing some of the extra value gained by putting a truly elite hitter (Mauer, possibly Posey and Santana) at the C spot in exchange for protecting his health and prolonging his career. Which, they probably already do (e.g. look at how the Nationals moved Bryce Harper). I’m really not thinking about the J.P. Arencibias and Ryan Doumits of the world—guys who are productive hitters, but would not be elite at other positions.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 26, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have a huge problem with guys playing catcher, depending on the club situation, per se. But getting anywhere in front of the path of a runner coming home is a bad idea.
consistently applied, I think this would yield a sizable advantage to the offense. It seems just as likely that throwing a splitter will eventually tear up your arm, but we don’t tell pitchers who have a good splitter never to throw it. At some point, injuries are a part of the game. Maybe there is a good way to train a catcher on when he should go all in at the plate, but I’d be very hesitant to say the answer is “almost never.”
When Santana starts hitting. (This was said tongue in cheek).
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on May 26, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you that teams need to evaluate the risk/rewards of having a good hitter at catcher. However, one thing I think we can all agree on is that it’s for the teams to decide, not the league. I don’t know if you guys have read the outrageous articles today suggesting that the rules should now be changed to protect catches. Where was even the slightest hint of this after Santana got hurt last year?
by jakesinger777 on May 26, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
How has this entire conversation taken place without the name Ray Fosse being mentioned?! Not that I’m still bitter.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Ther rash of errors has me worried. We’ve seen some sloppy games this past week.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on May 26, 2011 6:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Totally random LOLstat.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Watching the Clippers game tonite, Macallister dealing thru 6, 1 run allowed on a couple weak singles, no walks 5 k’s. He definitely is more mature as a pitcher than Gomez,has a better repertoire and control, and in my mind has passed him on the depth chart.
Chiz with an oppo double and a HR crushed off a low fastball into the wind to left center. The fact is he is not a huge downgrade defensively from Manahan, and a significant upgrade offensively. If the good pitching, too many holes in the lineup schtick continues in Cleveland, he might get promoted simply because he’s the superior player for a playoff run.
Is it fair to say that any downgrade among our infielders is “huge” given the manner in which our staff pitches?
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on May 26, 2011 10:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not quite sure what you mean – the staff gets a lot of groundballs, Hanahan’s plus D has been very valuable. But Chiz is a pretty good 3B, and he’s a much better bat. I see plugging the holes in the lineup and scoring runs being the big thing in the second half, when we try to capitalize on the hot start and make the playoffs.
Check it out – Manahan has been truly awful at the plate after his good start – .512 ops in May. Yes, that’s in obp and slugging combined. I really don’t care about positional production, just putting the best players on the field to maximize wins. Putting Hanahan in the lineup is fine when the rest of the offense is producing. When runs are at a premium, with the designated 3B of the future doing well at Columbus, at some point you pull the trigger.
I see where you’re coming from. When we’ve been struggling to plate more than 2 runs per game, improving the offense seems like a priority. It isn’t surprising that the offense has struggled against some of the elite pitchers in the AL with both Grady and Pronk out of the lineup.
Pitching and defense is what has kept us in games consistently, so I would be slow to “pull the trigger” with Chiz. Even though he’s been doing well at Columbus, there is a big difference between AAA and the big leagues. Most rookies take a couple of years to become consistent high-level contributors, so looking for Chiz to be the catalyst for a playoff run seems a bit optimistic.
We should be seeing Grady back soon. If the pitching and defense continues to be close to what we’ve seen so far, I think we are contenders in the AL Central even without drawing on the infield talent in Columbus. I suspect we will need the pitching depth as injuries dictate.
"I just try and keep it simple. I could elaborate, but that would be ironic." - Jeremy Sowers
I’m not really advocating anything, and I totally agree about projecting AAA performance.
What I am talking about is the likelihood of some moves being made out of necessity – there are certain consequences to trying to maintain an unexpected lead in the division, as we’ve already seen with Alex White being called up “before his time”.
The simple fact is, if we want to keep winning, there’s only so long we can keep putting out starting position players who are steadily ops’ing below .600, when there are alternatives a few miles away. Needless to say, the same goes for pitchers who aren’t performing very well.
What is the cutoff date for guys like Chiz, Kipnis, Phelps, McAllister, etc. to not be eligible for Super 2 status? While the team seems more willing to move players up when there’s a need (e.g. A. White) I have to imagine this still plays a part in the decision.
I really don’t think it’s a factor for any of these players. You have to remember that this is really more of a tie-breaker, used when a promotion decision is in a gray area. Also, it’s really not worth worrying about much for pitchers (because attrition limits most careers to < 6 years anyway) and “non-core” players (because the financial stakes aren’t that high).
The Indians philosophically don’t rush potential core players to the majors, and Chisenhall at least is a potential impact player, maybe Kipnis as well. So it may seem to be about arbitration, but it’s more that the arbitration thresholds seem to coincide pretty well with the development of these specific players.
Phelps apparently is not seen as a potential core player. McAllister is both non-core and a pitcher, so it definitely doesn’t matter for him. They’re probably more worried about preserving his options, so he can bounce around for 3-4 seasons, than about his service time.
Is there a particular reason Phelps isn’t seen as a core player? From what I remember hearing he plays at least average defense, and he’s now OPS’d over 900 in about 450 triple A plate appearances. He’s struck out more than he did last year, but he’s also walked more.
I could understand caution coming into the year, seeing as he hit well above his AA numbers after being promoted last season. But he’s hit even better this year. What am I missing?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 27, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Scouting mostly. He doesn’t project well, but that doesn’t seem to phase him.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on May 27, 2011 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We keep coming back to this. I wish I could remember how he put it but I find it interesting that Shapiro on his Mike and Mike segment specifically mentioned guys that could contribute as Cord Phelps, Jason Kipnis, and Lonnie Chisenhall. I think they think of those guys as a 3 pack now.
You know, there’s still a decent chance that LaPorta never turns into anything, and in fact takes a step back from where he is now. Would Phelps’s bat be good enough to play him at first? Even as a stop-gap?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 27, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyway, assuming Super 2 stays the same in the next CBA — which is not a safe assumption — the Indians are safe to call these guys up in another two weeks or so.
Thanks Jay. I agree with your point that philosophically Super 2 status is not dictating the decision and happens to coincide with the player development time line in this case. That said, I still believe that if the decision was whether to bring Chiz (for example) up now or to wait a month, Super 2 status would still play a part in that decision on the margin.
In the game I saw on STO awhile ago, he was just throwing fastballs by guys. It was a few notches up from where it was a year ago. Again, I think he might end up being a key guy this year.
He was throwing 92-93 tonite with not a lot of swing and misses on the fastball, but he was in control the entire time – not a single hard hit, mixing up pitches and not getting rattled with a guy on base or a three ball count. He struck out two guys on 3-2 with offspeed pitches, which shows a lot of confidence.
Putnam is the guy that needs to be in front of Judy and Herrmann – always pitches to the corners and hit 96 on his first K. Hagadone and him are, right now, the best relievers in waiting.
Putnam’s problem is not being on the 40-man.
As for McAllister, he’s got to be next up if Talbot has 2 more bad outings in his next 3. I think Talbot will be good enough to make this moot for now.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
<blockquotePutnam’s problem is not being on the 40-man.>
Yep. And neither is Chiz. And neither was White. Just sayin there may be better options at a few(2-4) 25 man spots at Columbus that may play out as the race tightens up, which it will.
With Kearns’ signs of life making it all that more interesting
by Gradyforpresident on May 27, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Any swing and misses on Zach’s offseed stuff?
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on May 27, 2011 12:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The more obvious upgrade is Phelps over Cabrera. Chisenhall is not a clear upgrade over Hanahan whereas Phelps is a clear upgrade over Cabrera.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on May 27, 2011 12:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, Cabrera doesn’t have the redeeming defensive qualities that Hanahan does.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on May 27, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
For the sake of discussion, I’d like to point out that Yahoo sports still has the Indians at the top of their power rankings, even after the Boston series. I know, power rankings are stupid, blah blah blah. But it is evidence of some national media members taking this team seriously, which is nice. Also, the sentence about the Indians was pretty funny:
Indians sweep Reds, claim Ohio. Next plan to invade West Virginia, do some pillaging there.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Sidenote: Adam Miller promoted to Akron last night.
by mcrose on May 27, 2011 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
This is what I found on Indians Prospect Insider. I wasn’t sure how to link to it, but this is what’s listed there (45 minutes ago was around1:15 PM Cleveland time).
@TonyIPI
Tony Lastoria
As expected, #Indians have promoted RHP Adam Miller to Double-A Akron.
46 minutes ago via web
Retweeted by ValpoDaveE and 3 others
I really don’t know this guy does it. I would have given up years ago.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on May 27, 2011 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ugly lineup tonight. it is price, but orlando making an extra out per game – in that part of the order – is nauseating to think about. i pray this is a one-day thing.
1. Brantley CF
2. Orlando 2B
3. Asdrubal SS
4. Duncan LF
5. LaPorta 1B
6. Sizemore DH
7. Santana C
8. Kearns RF
9. Hannahan 3B
I think I’d have split up Duncan and LaPorta with Sizemore (R,L,R) at least.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on May 27, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Acta’s giving Grady (likely) fewer ABs to ease him back in (he’s also not playing the field).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 27, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I also kind of wish that Buck was in rather than Kearns or Duncan. Isn’t buck better defensively than those two?
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