"[I]n light of the aggressive promotion of Chisenhall, I honestly can’t see why Kipnis isn’t up already."

Fangraphs wonders why we're sticking with Grandpa when we're contending.

11 months ago Denver Tribe Fan 72 comments 0 recs |

Comments

I guess I’ll be devil’s advocate here.

The Indians already tried to replace Cabrera when they brought Phelps up, so I don’t think they’re adverse to having someone take playing time away from him.

Kipnis is probably ready offensively for the big leagues, but he’s only been playing second base for a year and a half. The Indians are most likely reluctant to bring him up because he’s so inexperienced at a key defensive position, and I don’t really blame them.

by Ryan on Jul 11, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions

We all saw what happened with Phelps. Hitting wasn’t his problem.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Jul 11, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Well, he concedes that Chiz was way head defensively, which explains the move in part. But does anyone think OCab (-6.2 UZR) is playing great defense?

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions

And Phelps was supposed to be more advanced defensively.

by callmrplow on Jul 11, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Not doubting you, but was there anything that agrees with this assertion? I am more curious to see where Phelps as a more polished defender evidence is coming from.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 11, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

We’ll he’s an infielder, unlike Kipnis.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jul 11, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Just going based on what I’ve read. From what I’ve heard, Phelps is at least average defensively while Kipnis is average at best. Tony and the errors seem to agree.

by callmrplow on Jul 12, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Yea, sorry I am asking if someone can point me to some of the reading or scouting reports that suggests this.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 12, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions

I tried to find minor league UZR for Kipnis and Phelps with decent sample sizes yesterday before I posted this Fan Shot but couldn’t find anything.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 12, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

I don’t think those even exist.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jul 12, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions

They don’t, apparently.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 12, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Some would say that means it isn’t a stat.

/whistle

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 12, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

If they calculated UZR in the middle of the woods where no one could hear it……

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 12, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions

He’s played much longer at the position than Kipnis, and most scouting reports I’ve seen say he’s an average defender at second. I think his defensive problems in Cleveland were more nerves than anything else

by Ryan on Jul 12, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Sorry, I just meant I want to specifically read for myself some of the scouting reports.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 12, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions

If Valbuena could hit here, which he won’t, he would supplant Grandpa. Indians call up Luis, hope he shows something worth trading for a young fringe prospect and then dump him or send him back down in hopes of germinating that value in AAA. Grandpa starts struggling again, which he is wont to do, and Kipnis will be up in a month or two. But there is no sense of replacing him right now when we’re still in 1st and Kipnis is unfinished defensively. Especially with the injury to Chiz, a player with some defensive flexibility (not saying Luis is particularly outstanding at any position) is the current need. But it won’t be very long. Grandpa’s days as a regular are growing few.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 4:56 PM EDT reply actions

We’re in first?!

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Oops.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions

This is a ridiculous point on my part, but “growing few” are opposite images.

by joeee on Jul 13, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Kind of basically wrote his own argument’s counter.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jul 11, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions

there is no sense of replacing him right now when we’re still in 1st

I agree in part with a lot of what you said here about Ocab but am deeply philosophically opposed to the above quote. If Grandpa’s suckritude is a problem that could lead us to fall out of First, are we supposed to wait until we fall out of First to make a move?

Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative

by stuart dean on Jul 11, 2011 5:04 PM EDT reply actions

Reply fail – meant for USSChoo…

Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative

by stuart dean on Jul 11, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

You could easily turn it around and say we’re 15-23 since the beginning of June, etc. We are less in first place than we could be.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 11, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Very fair point. I do suppose you would want to try to be ahead of the curve.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions

If the Indians start fading, but the division is still in reach, I think you see a move to Kipnis. I am thinking 5 games back. I think as long as it’s tight, they might not feel the pressing need to call him up just yet until they are fully comfortable with his D.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 11, 2011 5:28 PM EDT reply actions

And not because I think 5 games back will mean Kipnis is more or less ready, but his promotion would be used as more of a shot in the arm for a floundering team.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 11, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions

not worthy of it's own fanshot, but if he's available, GO AFTER HIM, CHRIS:

The Red Sox are interested in Chicago Cubs starter Matt Garza, according to Phil Rogers of the Chicago Tribune.

Garza is “high on the list of pitchers they’re pursuing” … Garza is under team control through 2013, and Cubs GM Jim Hendry is reportedly not interested in dealing players who can help the team in the future.

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 11, 2011 5:29 PM EDT reply actions

Seems to be having a slightly down year, perhaps due to the league switch. But man, what I would give for a league average pitcher behind MasterCarLin.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions

.322 BABIP and FIP and xFIPs more than a run and a quarter below his ERA. His K and GB rates are up, and his LOB% is a career low. GET HIM!

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 11, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Well would ya look at that! Glad one of us did the real research. Get him, indeed.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions

This. I would give up Kipnis as part of a package for him in a second.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jul 12, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions

I’d give up Phelps as part of a package

by Roger Dorn on Jul 12, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

I’d give up both of you guys plus Phelps and Kipnis.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Ouch.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 12, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions

I take it as a compliment.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 13, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

You are worth 1/4 of Matt Garza.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 13, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Which 1/4? The Lee Stevens or the Cliff Lee? Or maybe the Brandon Phillips 1/4 – unruly and hard to place at first.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 13, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I’ve watched a decent sampling of Clippers games this year, and I can say for sure that Kipnis was, shall we say, a work in progress at 2B at the beginning of the year. No comparison to Ocab or even Valbs or Donald.

He’s shown a steady improvement, but both Phelps and Chiz are superior defensive players at this point, and its pretty clear that even they are both defensive downgrades (at this point) at the ML level – they were promoted for their offense.

And that is the answer to the FanGraphs query – Kipnis is indeed the best 2B bat in the system, but defensively he’s several players behind at that position. He has made strides, and I have no doubt that he will be the opening day 2B next year, but until then, its a cost/benefit analysis for the FO.

by mcrose on Jul 11, 2011 7:57 PM EDT reply actions

Keri had a proposed trade on ESPN Insider for the Indians. Indians get 2 million and Hiroki Kiruda for Nick Weglarz.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 11, 2011 8:08 PM EDT reply actions

Without knowing very much about him, I think I would do that. I like the 83/30 K/BB ratio. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over trading Weglarz.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 11, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Weglarz seems played out. At some point you have to actually hit the ball.

by Brad D on Jul 12, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions

The Dodgers would be giving money?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 11, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions

He’s making $12 million this season so the Indians probably wouldn’t take him unless the Dodgers covered part of his remaining salary.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 11, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah but, the Dodgers? Giving money?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions

You know they filed for bankruptcy, right? Link

"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.

by Matt Y. on Jul 12, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Hence, http://www.letsgotribe.com/2011/7/11/2270397/i-n-light-of-the-aggressive-promotion-of-chisenhall-i-honestly-cant#71727641

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I mean isn’t MLB kind of in control of their finances right now? I don’t know that they’re even in the position to make trades.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

The Dodgers aren’t spending extra money in the deal, however. They would be spending $3-4 million less if they did this deal than they are projected to spend now.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey, I’m for it. I just don’t think the Dodgers are moving much this season.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Wait nevermind.

The #Dodgers acquired OF Juan Rivera from the Toronto Blue Jays for a player to be named later or cash considerations.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions

I actually thought we might give Rivera a look. Not that I cared either way.

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 12, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Why are the Dodgers even buyers?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 12, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

I can’t speak for a team that tosses in a pitcher to acquire Casey Blake for Carlos Santana, but I don’t think this qualifies as being buyers.

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 12, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

It’s all Plaschke’s fault.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jul 12, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

The Dodgers are only as constrained as the 2002 Expos, at most.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I’d take this.

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 11, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m on board with this because his contract is up at the end of the year. That dude is 36! I didn’t know that.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 11, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Woah, I thought 2-3 years younger. I’ll still take him for Wegz.

"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady

by westbrook on Jul 11, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Right? Amazing.

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 12, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions

The contract is up, but you should still have his rights for two more years.

by 7foot3 on Jul 13, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Interesting point, but do we even want them?

Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.

by USSChoo on Jul 13, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Not only that, but I doubt we’d really have them. Kuroda’s original MLB deal gave him the (unusual) right to be a free agent after only three years of service time. (I believe such a clause is a violation of the CBA, but whatever.) After getting that clause the first time, it’s a bit hard to believe he would not demand it for his next contract.

by Jay on Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I’ve tried to look into it, and found little to nothing on how the Dodger’s actually re-signed him. To me, it looks like they didn’t offer him arbitration but could have.

by 7foot3 on Jul 14, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Pretty dumb article. Not only is Chisenhall far ahead defensively, but the Indians have far less depth at 3B than at 2B. As a final reason, whatever the Mariners are doing, we probably should do the opposite.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2011 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs

Your minions really have your back.

by emd2k3 on Jul 12, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I know. I sort of pulled a Hoynes there, throwing red meat to the dogs.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

I think we’re doing the opposite of their outfield situation, with Gutz/Kearns. /snark

"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"

by Gradysmanldy on Jul 12, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Or not, just looked up Gutz numbers. Yowza.

"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"

by Gradysmanldy on Jul 12, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions

Not that I’m a big fan of Gutz, but I think that you’ve got to give him a pass on the last 1.5 years of his career. He’s clearly not healthy and, actually, his chronic illness is starting to look pretty crippling.

by jdudas on Jul 17, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions

So let’s give him a pass for that? I think health counts.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 18, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Sad to say, but one of the keys to the second half could be Valbuena performing well. If he can somehow hit well (lol), it would be a huge boost to this team because of his defensive versatility.

by Toxicadam on Jul 12, 2011 9:59 AM EDT reply actions