A trade deadline thread
I thought now was as good a time as any to get one these going and leave it up for the week. There's going to be a whole lotta chatter.
10 months ago
nickjs21
766 comments
12 recs |
Email
PrintComments
There are two bits of rumors in the last half-hour that may marginally affect the Indians:
The Braves are reportedly close to landing a right-handed bat, and everyone expected them to go after an OF. Whatever the target, it likely takes one less player off the Indians’ list.
And Wilson Betemit looks like he’s about to head out of KC. There’s nothing especially tantalizing about Wilson except he doesn’t suck. He’s a switch-hitter, but he actually doesn’t have good splits against LHP. I don’t think the Indians are in on him but you never know.
Steel Nick
Tigers got Betemit. At least we know the Royals will trade within the division *cough*Melky*cough*.
Steel Nick
Hmmm. Betemit isn’t great, but he’s easily better than Brandon Inge. Have you seen Inge’s splits? .177/.242/.242, or a .483 OPS in 239 plate appearances.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
I guess that $11.5M two-year extension Inge signed last winter was not a good idea. The Tigers are also paying Carlos Guillen $13M this year and Magglio Ordonez $10M.
This should be a fanpost.
/Jay
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Hmmm….Melky Cabrera is one of the more interesting realistic options for the Indians IMO.
"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"
Yeah. A couple AA/A prospecta? That was the return for Betemit.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Ah, you’re right. B-ref says Free Agent: 2013.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
What the? Stupid phone. Reply fail. This was for Nick.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Astros willing to deal Pence. I would give them Gomez, Phelps, and McCalister. Pence has an awesome arm in the outfield can hit and run, also a right handed bat. Best of all under team control till 2013 and is young. If we suck in 2013 we can recoup the prospects by trading him. He is the perfect fit. I think if you dont want him we might as well hang on to the prospects.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/astros-willing-to-trade-hunter-pence.html
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 20, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
This fits pretty well.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 20, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I would contemplate swapping your disdained udder for Pence. Maybe.
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
by stuart dean on Jul 21, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
moooooooooove along, then.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 21, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I would give them Gomez, Phelps, and McCalister.
and they would hang up…Pence is going to cost one of if not two of our top prospects. He isn’t a salary dump, he’s a rebuilding piece.
They would hang up? Really?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 20, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to believe that, if they called us offering that deal, we would hang up. I have to believe that because, if I don’t, I’m forced to believe that the team is being run by a moron. I’m not ready for that.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
by Joel D on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If the organization’s perception of Phelps is what it seems to be, I don’t see how parting with two projected four starters and him is way too high for Hunter Pence. Seems like a good deal to me.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 10:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m surprised by this reaction. I thought I was more bullish on our prospects than most, but I didn’t think we even had Gomez and McCallister tagged as 4th starters. I’ve been thinking of them as Ohka-style depressing fill-in starters. Do other people think they’ll actually be usable? Aren’t they two guys who are succeeding in AAA without striking people out, who got bludgeoned last year, and who never had scout love? I can’t imagine Houston even considering a Pence deal based around the guys I see.
mccallister I would think of in that ohka sense, but I think Jeanmar has more upside and I think Cord could be a valuable piece. And I think Jenamar is a better strikeout guy when he gets adjusted to a level. He had 7.2 per 9 this year in Columbus and 8.0 in 2009 in akron. Jeanmar is a much more raw player imo than mccallister who I think is fairly close to hitting his ceiling
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
quite a bit better than mccallister who is a poor man’s tomlin at best.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
yeah, they are definitely different in the specific stuff they have. However, when people describe mccallister as a “command and control specialist”, “low 90s fastball” “aggressive pitcher who goes after hitters”, those words all make me think of tomlin. I know mccallister has a sinking fastball, but there are definite similarities in how they pitch and their production
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Also 28.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 11:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’ll take 2+ years of Pence for a probable utility guy and 2 maybe back of the rotation starters at best, especially considering the attrition rate for pitchers. No way Houston would ever consider it.
I’d have no problem trading any but elite pitching prospects (White, Pomeranz) for a close to sure thing position player. Pitching prospects break your heart.
One of those number four starters is worth as much to a team as Pence.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jul 21, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thought: by acquiring Pence the Indians could move Choo or Pence to cf. Choo does have some experience there and would probably be at least average defensively. This is significant considering Sizemore’s injury history. The Indians need a cf now. Or, you just move Brantley there and Choo or Pence to left. There’s some flexibility there, is my point.
Brantley is a perfectly legitimate major league CF and Carrera is a perfectly acceptable backup. No reason to move anyone else to CF while Grady is down.
There’s also no reason to pay Ed Wade a king’s ransom for Hunter Pence, who, frankly, is not worth what Ed Wade is going to demand.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have been more specific. I agree, Brantley is fine for the remainder of this year, and maybe beyond. But looking beyong 2011, you have to think Sizemore is done in cf and maybe the outfield altogether.
The of is really thin with no prospects close. A move has to be made now or in the off-season. It would be hard to trade White, Pomeranz, Kipnis, or Chisenhall. But that of is now a major problem.
he just mentioned Carrera. he hasn’t shown a ton while up here, but he would certainly be good depth in the OF. Also, after 2011 we will only have 2 years I believe with Pence. Thats still a short term option. Its not something to rely upon, but you also have Wegz if he can stay healthy.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Really, the only team for which it would make sense to offer the Indians something for Wegz as things are now is the Jays, since he’s Canadian. Even so, it wouldn’t be very much.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
They’re “potential” 4 starters. And do you really think the Indians are going to improve the way they need to by not spending (within reason ofcourse)?
More likely, Sizemore’s future is NOT with the Indians – Beau Mills would be a better bet at 1B long-term than Sizemore, and that’s provided LaPorta or Santana doesn’t establish themselves at 1B before Mills arrives (and at this rate, it’s not out of the question).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
he already is! I assume Francis couldn’t hit AA pitching either.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Will Beau Mills be ready before he’s 30?
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we are seriously talking about Beau Mills, something has gone terribly wrong
by APV on Jul 22, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If anything, it would just be more exposure to the notable minefield that is the first base area.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Maybe we can get a special dispensation to allow Grady to run the bases backwards.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Just like cricket.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 25, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
From the Astros perspective? Wouldn’t trading him be using the return to rebuild?
by The Grimace on Jul 21, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I know none of these 3 names are expected to be great players, but if we’re looking to have an extended run here, we’re going to need to hold on to most of the guys that are close to the majors.
Yes and no. We have more candidates than potential slots over the next few years, even keeping injuries at a reasonable expected level. So we probably don’t need all of them, but we need all the “right” ones and giving away one of the “wrong” ones would be a significant blow. Accidently trading away Jeremy Guthrie would be bad…trading Ryan Garko would be not so bad.
All the more reason why guys like Tony Zarrella (on Cleveland’s CBS 19) saying you have to go “all in” this year are way off-base – this is NOT the year you go all-in. That’s when you are a piece or two away from being a WS-title contender – the Indians are not at that point, yet.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I think it is pretty safe to assume anything you hear in the Cleveland sports media in general is way off base, including TV news, radio sports talk, and STO’s sports talk programs.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Pence is what you want your top prospects to turn into, why not eliminate the risk and give up some prospects for a proven All Star who isn’t even a rental. ( I think this sums up my feelings on Pence)
really? sums it up? you have only been on this hot button for three days now.
While you may want to give them Gomez, Phelps, and McAllister, we have no idea if that is the current asking price Houston is asking for.
If Pence is Houston’s best player (likely is) and Wade has his track record, I suspect that the asking price will be higher than the 3 johio1 mentioned. Heck, they’d probably ask for Pomeranz or White in the deal, to which I say “NO.”
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Jump off a bridge at that chance?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 20, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
sizemore is a “proven all-star”. Does that mean a team should jump at giving up similar talent as suggested for a sizemore? Not saying Pence is sizemore, but these kinds of things have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis on whether you jump (and evaluated by what you have to give up).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Does “jump at that chance” mean adding a Pomeranz or White to that trade proposal, because that might be what it will take, and as I said above, I don’t make that deal, regardless if Pence is an all-star or not.
Keep in mind that Dunn was an all-star also, yet he has not handled the adaptation to the AL well. Perhaps it’s because he’s only DHing, whereas Pence wouldn’t, but I’ve always been leery of position players changing leagues, especially NL hitters switching to the AL. Many of them struggle, especially initially, and what if Pence does during the rest of this year while we’re in the playoff race? Then, what real good does that trade do us this year.
Next year, maybe Pence rebounds, but for 2011, the net effect from the trade might be zero or less.
Regardless, I don’t trade Pomeranz or White for Pence – if Houston balks at that, fine, no deal, period.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Is this a quote? This sounds really familiar. Sounds like something Steve Phillips would say, actually.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 22, 2011 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Not specifically Phillips. Just general ESPN-speak.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 22, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
me too, but …
hate levels:
dellucci > valbuena > benfran > durbin
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
God, thanks for reminding me we had Ohka.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
the memories of Oldberto unfortunately stick with me. Ohka always seems to slip my mind. maybe I blocked him out, but if I blocked him out and not Oldberto, I hate my mind.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Gah! Now I’m going to have nightmares.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jul 22, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I must confess a short-lived prior Valbuena crush…
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
by stuart dean on Jul 21, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would someone hate Ben Francisco? He wasn’t awful, nor were we paying him a lot.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 11:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I agree. Don’t understand Ben Francisco hate. Need more Kobayashi hate, though.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 21, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Just think, he’s still in the majors, which is more than can be said for noted prospects like Michael Aubrey. And, he’s had more success and time in the majors than noted prospects such as Brad Snyder.
I too find the Francisco hate amusing, to an extent. We have bigger concerns over what and what not Francisco is doing. Charlie seems happy enough with him. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
He and Garko were Pluto’s two dumbass crushes.
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
by stuart dean on Jul 21, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
So how about Beltran? Okay, probably a pipe dream. But hang on. He shouldn’t cost as much as Victor two years ago. Right? Victor had an option left, and while I don’t remember his OPS at the time, he had 15 homers. Also Victor’s a catcher, Beltran’s an outfielder. We got Masterson, who had had success as a reliever but no one was sure if he could start. Then we got two A pitchers.
How about Hagadone/Judy (whichever is worth more), Kelvin de la Cruz, and a promising single A pitcher with good stuff? Need more? Substitute Donald or Phelps for de la Cruz. Or Scott Barnes instead of an AAA reliever? That might be too much; I wouldn’t want to give more, and certainly not Kipnis, White, or Chiz.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Isn’t his contract expiring?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
This article says his value is lower than the Mets are indicating because there are no compensation picks tied to him when he becomes a free agent.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Judy and Phelps? Not enough, right?
unless we take on his whole salary, in which case: too much?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Seems they want Pomeranz.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 10:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In this case, it’s a reasonable demand.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/carlos-beltrans-trade-value/
This article suggests he should bring a couple of C prospects if the Mets throw in a couple million. His production isn’t worth more than his salary, so there’s no surplus value in a straight trade. But I think the Mets will throw in more money.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Seems they want Pomeranz.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 20, 2011 10:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Can we trade for Logan Morrison just because of his tweets? I say Kipnis + White + Pomeranz, and throw in a PTBNL.
“Ditto my love life.” Ha!
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
The Marlins seem like they are run by a bunch of idiots…so it would be nice to fleece them of Morrison.
I don’t see how anyone can think Marlins baseball ops are run by morons. The owner is unappealing, but the guys who do talent acquisition clearly have a handle on their work.
by afh4 on Jul 21, 2011 8:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Some people conflate the two.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 21, 2011 12:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don’t know about others, but I prefer this type of thread to be more informational, rather than “suggestions”. We don’t want Shapiro tweeting about how he avoids scrolling down in this thread…
I think this kind of thread is fine, with certain caveats. First, none of us (to the best of my knowledge) are actually in communication with real MLB sources who could give us actual information. And as long as the conversation is focused on reasonable assessments of guys (avoiding the, “I saw Weglarz hit a 500ft HR in spring training three years ago….the guy is a SUPERSTARZ” kind of discussion) I don’t see the harm.
It’s weird – I figured we would have made a move by now. Outside of the ‘08 firesale (and maybe due to the desire that year not to completely give up on the season so early), the Tribe usually makes some moves a bit earlier. I’m kinda waiting/expecting/hoping for the shoe to drop soon.
All I know is that if the press release/news stories credit whomever we pick up with “Veteran Leadership” before any types of stats are listed I’ll be pi… less than happy. The team is treading water right now – which, while is better than what happened in June, it will not get us to the playoffs. We need both a significant OF bat (no Veteran on the downside of his career still making money on a name he made for himself 5 years ago) and a stabilizing force in the rotation (I’d take a simple innings eater – no need to overspend when we have arms coming up).
It’s a pitty we’ve had prospects like Barnes go down recently. While I’ve been intrigued by him (and rooted for him irrationally since we got him), he was the perfect trade bait – or at least something good to add to a package.
One last caveat on trades – I think it’s key to remember that this is the beginning of a window, not at the end. That changes how we trade, who we trade from our org, and just as importantly who we trade for.
I just want to believe.
I think it’s key to remember that this is the beginning of a window, not at the end.
I wonder what kind of chances the Indians would have of extending a player like Melky Cabrera if they managed to land him.
Steel Nick
Depends on whether and how much we win as a result. If a player can be convinced he’s wanted and that the team is on an upswing and will be in the hunt for the next few years, the amount we’d have to overpay for a free agent (the Cleveland/small market team penalty, if you will), goes down somewhat. Also a factor is whether any of the big dogs want a player.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m still not entirely certain it’s real
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s Melky Cabrera
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In a vacuum it’s a 26-year-old experiencing an offensive spike in a year when offense is down. A 119 OPS+ from a switch-hitter with 14 steals, a 3.2 WAR, what would appear to be average defense in either left or center, and something like $700k left on his contract.
Steel Nick
Our other options include:
Carlos Beltran and Hunter Pence, both of whom come with (assumed) significant price tags.
Josh Willingham has already been on the DL this year with an Achilles problem.
Ryan Ludwick would be acquired betting on an offensive resurgence that is not guaranteed.
Coco Crisp. Not sure I have to defend this one, but did I mention the $5.75 mil?
Reed Johnson I do like, and he’s even cheaper, but I’ve been his biggest supporter and even I don’t think any of it’s sustainable if we wanted the option of a multi-year solution (not to mention he’s 34).
Jeff Franceour is simply not as good right now. I imagine Moore is only trading one or the other.
Mike Morse, I like. He’d cost more but it’s conceivably worth it. But we don’t even know if he’s available.
Am I leaving anyone out? Laynce Nix would come exceptionally cheap but I would still say Melky is having a better year than him, is more likely to sustain it, and Laynce is a lefty.
Steel Nick
I imagine the A’s are probably also making David DeJesus available. He’s not having a good year, but he does have a track record in the AL Central and he probably wouldn’t cost very much. and he’s a free agent after the end of the season.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit is already buying.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, he’s got a 119 OPS+?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d still rather get Chris Davis and put LaPorta in LF. But I just did a doubletake at Melky…
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m probably delusional, but I’d be mildly surprised if something doesn’t happen today actually. That is unless both Brantley and Buck are deemed ready to play againt a key division rival this weekend… I mean after all WE HAVE NO OUTFIELDERS!
I forgot Ed Wade was their GM. Do we have any overpaid bullpen arms we could foist upon him?
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
by stuart dean on Jul 21, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t want to get into a discussion about Pence as a trade target, but can someone more familiar with Houston explain his home/road splits to me? His SLG (and thus OPS) advantage at home is triples-driven. He has 21 triples at home and only three on the road (none since 2008), while hitting doubles and homers at the same pace home and away.
Jon Heyman reporting Indians now “eyeing” Coco Crisp.
I figure tomorrow we’ll ask about David DeJesus just for fun.
"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"
I’m hearing Kevin Seitzer and Jeff Brantley – professional hitters both..
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
by stuart dean on Jul 21, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The nice thing about Coco Crisp is that, while he isn’t as good as Melky Cabrera, at least he makes about 5 times as much money!
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 21, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And with the news of Sizemore’s surgery, we now have at least some rationale as to why the Indians might be interested in Coco Crisp. Outfield search now expanded beyond right field help to include outfield help at any position.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t follow that reasoning. Brantley is already more than capable of playing center and has done it for half his games this year already. And behind him, Carrera.
And even if they wanted someone capable of playing CF, I have to go back to beating the drum for Melky Caberera, who is 1) currently playing center for KC, 2) better than Coco, and 3) makes less money than Coco this year.
Steel Nick
Jesus, it had better. But who cares what it costs? Coco is making almost $6 million this year and has a .699 OPS. That’s a “PTBNL or cash considerations” move, and that’s not the kind of move you make to push your team into the postseason.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 21, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While I agree he can’t hit, no one can hit in Oakland. I think you would see a slight improvement offensively if he were to be traded.
Crisp at home this year: .289/.351/.428
Crisp on the road this year: .245/.283/.348
Trombone/creamy/soda.
This is probably something that will get me toasted here, but I don’t really believe in half season home/road splits, and I do believe that getting out of an offensive black hole (division and park) would help his overall hitting, but again not by much as I originally said I don’t think he can hit much either way.
Besides the fact that he has a history in Cleveland, and Cleveland is in the pennant race; Oakland certainly isn’t. You would think that could only help and not hurt Coco’s stats and drive. Might not be a bad move if it didn’t cost much (prospect-wise), and for the trade to go down, the Dolans would have to approve the higher cost this year, and it’s ONLY for this year, so it wouldn’t hamper us long-term.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
If Coco Crisp costs anything close to a prospect I’ll be blown away.
He’s barely an upgrade offensively to Buck and Kearns right now. Is that really what we should be looking for? And hope that knowing the best restaurants in Cleveland will wake up his bat?
Steel Nick
Switch-hitter?
One of the big plusses with Crisp is that we’re dealing with Beane. He and Antonetti can speak freely and in the same language about player value. He knows what Crisp is really worth (and not worth) and won’t waste time with delusions of a higher value. If he’s got a higher offer from some sucker on the line, he’ll do it. But if he doesn’t, we’ll get Crisp at reasonable cost.
Speaking of comparing costs in a Melky or Coco deal, Royals Review estimates Melky’s WAR is worth a Grade B pitcher. Going into the season McAllister (and I think Gomez? note sure) was a C+ by Baseball America, I’d wager his performance has moved him to B. Gardner was a B that may be bumped down at this point.
Steel Nick
Grady is supposed to be out 4-6 weeks, so he’d be out until late August at best, and possibly until the middle of September.
You would think also he’ll need some ABs in the Minors, but the problem is, if it is closer to the middle of September, there likely won’t be ABs in the Minors unless at least one of our Minor League teams is in their championship series (a possiblity).
So, in essence, how effective would Grady be when he came back, and how long would it take him to hit like he did or close to what he did in April? Certainly, feeling better before the injury in May should help, but that much rest, he almost certainly would need ABs before coming back if he can get them.
Therefore, acquiring Crisp might make more sense than first thought. If McAllister himself (or perhaps a minor prospect in addition) could net Cabrera through 2012, that might be another possible option, though it sounds like the Indians are pretty high on McAllister, so I’m not sure if Melky’s somewhat outlying season (I don’t remember him being this good of an offensive player) will be enough to overcome their like for McAllister or not.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Astros cannot find requisite 3-4 player offer for Pence.. Likely staying. Wandy market hurt by AL teams wary of NL pitchers, Suppan Effect
Steel Nick
Wandy wouldn’t be a bad piece. I would probably give up most anything other than Pom, White, or Kipnis.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 21, 2011 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Of course they are. Ed Wade can’t stop being Ed Wade.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Shelley hasn’t been down for 10 days. He can only be called up if someone is DLed and there appears to be no need for DLing Brantley or Buck. The only other outfielder on the 40-man roster who is not with the team or on the DL is Wegz, who is currently in Akron and clearly not ready.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
For all the talk of how hot Lollbuena was, The Donald was OPS’ing higher (SSS alert).
Being a smart-ass is vastly preferable to the alternative
Eh, I really want to be able to get excited about Donald, but this statement is not remotely true. Valbuena as a 23 year old OPS’d 700 something in almost 400 plate appearances. Donald last year at 25 y.o.— 690.
by madherb on Jul 21, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
did you see the numbers on that ex-Yankee infielder who is like 35 that Arizona is replacing Drew with? Crazy.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
couldn’t remember his name… ummm…
Cody Ransom! Glad I didn’t say Rasmus…
26 homers at AAA Reno// 1.069 OPS.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Still playing in Columbus right now. I’d like it be Donald if it isn’t Kipnis, but it’s weird that they haven’t pulled him, right?
Steel Nick
Gammons again:
One AL contender called Mets on RA Dickey, told he’s not going anywhere.
I wouldn’t mind him. I hope this was the Indians just so I can hope they’re calling a lot of teams about pitching.
Steel Nick
In that neither can play baseball well as of 2011? I can’t make another significant connection.
Steel Nick
#Indians sending Luis Valbuena to minors. #Padres recalling Kyle Blanks from minors. Anyone else sensing a Ludwick to Cleveland deal?
You are reading my signature.
Blech. Another former Indian with a sub-.700 OPS who people think is better than he really is.
2011 Home OPS – .681
2011 Away OPS – .705
It’s not Petco, it’s Ludwick.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 21, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ludwick for Kluber with cash considerations???
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
Sorry no cash considerations.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
Speculation and as a joke since we got Kluber from SD.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
Nick’s fallen for Melky, Hunter Pence is still bandied about, Coco Crisp and Ryan Ludwick are in the mix…
Eeeesh.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
Hey is Mark DeRosa around?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Injured.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
he’ll fit right in!
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 21, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Actually, he’s now out on rehab and could be back soon.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 23, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
But if someone wants to talk me down on Melky, I’m all ears. I just think he’s the best possible combination of added value to the team and relatively low purchase cost. Is he (like my other crush, Reed Johnson) having a career year? Likely. However, that’s what contending teams do at the deadline. They pay for someone playing at their peak and hope it rides out for three more months.
I’ll also point out that he’s 26. If the front office evaluates his spike in ISO is sustainable, he could into that “not just a rental” guy.
Steel Nick
No one seems to think Cubs are readily available, but I don’t know if this is something the Cubs themselves have suggested or just because none of those names are coming up.
Steel Nick
However, that’s what contending teams do at the deadline. They pay for someone playing at their peak and hope it rides out for three more months.
Isn’t this what San Fran did with Cody Ross last year? And, I’m all for Melky, personally.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 21, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It is if Baltimore decides to sell.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Not having a very good year and isn’t he on the permanent outs with LaRussa?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Change of scenrey trade.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 21, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Cards’ need bullpen help and we need an outfielder. We seem to match up quite well.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 21, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
also haven’t heard much about Michael Bourn, even though he seems to be available. Much rather have him than Crisp
OK Bourn is kind of interesting.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 21, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
TonyIPI Tony Lastoria
In other news, I am hearing the #Indians and #Padres may be close to a deal on an unnamed player. The assumption is Ludwick.
(And I don’t mean that to sound as dismissive as it did, just that Harang is the much preferred possibility of the two.)
Steel Nick
Chris Denorfia is a useful little player who is cheap. For those same reasons, I’m not sure why the Padres would trade him.
Maybe we get rid of OCAB at the same time! The Padres need Vet leadership with all of their young guys. right?
Here is an absurd idea from absolutely nowhere – Valbuena for Jake Westbrook!
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I approve. STL would not do that though.
Also, from MLBTR DID NOTHING WRONG:
…a source tells Bruce Levine of ESPN Chicago that the Cubs would be “willing to absorb a high percentage” of the money left on [Soriano’s] deal if the right trade offer came along. … Levine also mentions that there is interest in Kosuke Fukudome, John Grabow, and Marlon Byrd. The Indians are among those interested in Fukudome.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Improbably, Melky Cabrera continues to be the best option.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 21, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Just think of the pain this would cause announcers around the American League:
“Ball hit into the left field gap. Cabrera goes for, but it’s off the wall. Carrera fields, throws it in to Cabrera, who throws to Cabrera at second….”
“Bloop fly into shallow left-center. Cabrera coming in. Cabrera’s going out. And Cabrera calls them off at the last second!”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 22, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Close, but if my math is correct, it’s 1 Carrera and 2 Cabreras, I think. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Nah, with a trade for Melky, we could have a convergence of three Cabreras and a Carrera in shallow left-center (of course Orlando might have to be pre-stationed at 2B for that due to his lack of range).
I think I saw that Everth guy is back in the majors… maybe DET will get him and he’ll have to scamper back to second in case that ball gets caught.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Ferdinand Cabrera.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
my bad. I always screw up his name.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 22, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Fernando brings back memories. I had a bet with my friend after ’06 that Fernando would turn out to be better than Fausto.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Always hated his unrepeatable mechanics
by stuart dean on Jul 24, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
And take the place of Zaphod Beeblebrox?
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 24, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Rival execs beginning to believe CLEV’s moves will be more incremental than anything. CLE won’t trade prime assets to augment ’11 Indians.- buster onley via twitter
Yes, good. One scenario is that we actually do get Choo and Sizemore back in early September. Even at a diminished level, those are better moves than adding Coco Crisp or Ryan Ludwick. It’s getting through August that’s going to be tough, and you have to wonder if there won’t be a salary dump outfielder available at some point this month. Pitching might be another matter.
Tigers front-runner to get Harang from Padres for back of rotation
I’m not sure how I feel about this if it ends up being true. I really want another starter, and Harang and Kuroda seem to be the only two the Indians have been connected to (I understand that doesn’t mean they’re the only two, but that’s all I have to go on). Kuroda is the better pitcher talent-wise, but Harang can’t block the trade, has a mutual option for 2012 if things go well, and has an incredibly cheaper contract. He’s only been a little worse this year and is still a decent option.
Losing one of them to the Tigers would feel like a gut-punch. Of course, NL West pitchers yadda yadda.
Steel Nick
Whaaaa.
Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com reports that the Indians and Pirates are among the teams that have inquired about the availability of Chris Iannetta.
Colorado is willing to consider offers, likely because top prospect Wilin Rosario isn’t far away from the majors. Iannetta, 28, is batting .224/.376/.412 with 10 homers and 36 RBI over 288 plate appearances this season. He will make $3.55 million next season with a $5 million club option or $250,000 buyout for 2013. The Red Sox have expressed interest in the past, but Morosi writes that they are satisfied with their catching situation at the moment.
Quoting Rotoworld. Here’s the original article.
Steel Nick
The Pirates inquiring makes sense, since they’re on about Plan F in the catching department. I don’t like what this might imply for the Indians.
I noticed this too, but:
A – He mashes LHP to the tune of .907 OPS and .271 ISO in his career
B – His career road OPS of .714 is still clearly better than LaPorta’s .699. The OBP difference is even larger – .340 to .305.
I don’t know much about his defense though. If Santana was primarily playing first base, that would be at least a little upgrade over LaPorta right?
If nothing else, this really proves that the FO is searching every possible avenue to help the team.
Doesn’t this seem to imply Santana at first with Marson and Iannetta splitting time behind the plate, while LaPorta goes back to the outfield? If so, why would you not like it?
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I think it’s more likely we’re looking at other Rockies
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Or maybe we have Marson lined up as part of a trade for someone? With his defensive skills, I would think he has some value.
by kennesawmountainwahoo on Jul 23, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
He would certainly have value, especially given that he is young and inexpensive. His real value to us though is his being Fausto’s and CarCar’s personal catcher. I suppose anyone could be traded for the right return, but I doubt that other teams would value him as much as we do.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
Or maybe LaPorta becomes the backup catcher, because he hits like one.
by xrickx on Jul 23, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I haven’t been convinced that the Indians would be making a trade, but after listening to the Shapiro interview before the game started, I am pretty certain we will. When Shapiro was asked about the Indians and any potential trades, he said he felt very confident that Indians would be making a trade before the deadline. He said Chris and his staff have been pursuing every trade option and will find a creative way to help the team. Perhaps looking into an Iannetta trade was the creativity Shapiro was talking about.
BJ Upton anyone? It appears that he’s on the block.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
what a wildly underachieving career he’s had
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup…I don’t think anyone though a guy with his talent would be hitting .232 with a .312 OBP at this point. I think I even saw a tweet recently calling him out for still not running out grounders…so maybe a trade would be a nice kick in the shorts.
That said, I would still take him. He is young, does have the talent to play better than he is, and brings good defense to the table (which would be nice).
Of course, the Rays are not idiots, and are probably going to want a pretty significant package for their former first round pick…do you think we have what it takes?
He is still a good player (right?), and from everything I have read a fan favorite…and he would be a good piece for a team like us that needs to add a OF bat but is also still trying to build for the future. I think the Rays know his value, and it’s going to cost whoever wants him.
I have a harder time pegging Upton’s trade value than anyone else on the market. And considering we’re just spitballing when we do think we know, I feel safe saying I don’t have a clue what he would cost.
Steel Nick
His being a fan favorite (if true) will not be a factor.
Only 1.5 years left on that contract. It’s not that much more than a rental.
Why would that not matter? The Rays can’t get anyone to come watch them as it is, despite their on-field success. Trading away a fan favorite can only create more disinterest.
I can’t for sure say that the Rays’ front office would consider the impact on the revenue side of trading away a popular player, but it ought to at least enter their thinking.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
First, how many fans do the Rays even have? It’s not like this guy is Johnny Damon, where all the Red Sox and Yankees fans in Florida want to see them.
Second, only the most elite players have any measurable effect on revenues, and the Rays know that, and they know that the other clubs know that.
Third, based on an admittedly brief web search, I’m calling BS on this “fan favorite” idea. Evidently, he’s viewed by the rank and file down there much the same way Jhonny Peralta was viewed — as a disappointment who doesn’t hustle — with the added bonus that he occasionally offers up a gaffe on the record, plus the additional disappointment of his draft pedigree.
It’s only the stat-head crowd that carries a torch for the guy, mostly in reaction to the criticism routinely thrown at him, which is seen by some to have a racial component. I can’t find ANY mainstream media reference to his being a fan favorite. So please, cite the source, or let’s move on.
all this, and as stated time and time again, winning affects revenue. If Friedman thinks a move will create more wins for them in the long run than keeping Upton, he’ll do it.
You are reading my signature.
Despite their notoriety, I don’t see how Damon or Manny could be fan favorites of the type that add any value in keeping rather than trading situations. They are mercenaries. Being homegrown or something close to it, is probably a prerequisite.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I think the point is that Tampa has so many transplants that former Yankee/Red Sox greats probably show up in town already fan favorites.
Steel Nick
You might be right there.
I think guys like Damon and Manny have a degree of jersey selling value that is of a transferable kind.
Victor was not in the same category. His extra value came from being someone who Tribe fans got to see develop.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
The have had enviable success over the last 5 years or so, and still can’t put butts in seats. Meanwhile they seem to turn over a 1/3 to 1/2 of their roster every year.
I am not arguing that winning isn’t the most important factor, only that it isn’t the only factor.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I think there has not been enough discussion of the limits of win-based attendance draws. We know that nothing draws like winning, and we know that to a certain point, people really do root for laundry. But the small market clubs seem to have tested “winning laundry” as an absolute assumption and come up a little bit short of where they thought they might be.
Maybe fans do root for laundry but don’t want to feel like they’re rooting for laundry, don’t want it shoved in their faces all the time. It’s one thing to be a dope, quite another to be told that you’re a dope on a regular basis.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I appreciate this type of reflection. There are a lot of smart people posting here, who understand and enjoy baseball on a nuanced and sophisticated level. It is the reason I spend so much of my time reading away on these pages.
However, I worry about the elitist disdain of the educated fan towards the cle.com crowd, when we all probably have friends and family that we care about, who see things just as simplistically. I would rather see a greater effort made to understand why the everyday fan’s less educated opinions arise in the context of how much those opinions really matter to the financial health of the ball club. The “oh aren’t we fantastic because we love the Indians so much smarter than they do” vibe is unattractive and unhelpful in explaining things like poor attendance.
At the end of the day, we are all a little foolish to spend so much time and to tie up so much emotion in the for-profit enterprise of grown men, who have a tenuous at best connection to Cleveland, playing a game all summer long, in the hopes that we will be a part of something special. That “being a part of something” emotion seems more authentic when people feel some connection to the grown men involved, despite that connection being clearly one-sided and mostly imaginary. Looking a little more at this odd psychological contradiction can only help us understand why we smart fans are more or less knowingly duped into rooting for a uniform and yet get inordinately depressed when some players are no longer going to wear it. Those same emotions are on display with the batting average crowd, and diminishing their value because it should have been placed on a player with a better OPS+, doesn’t make us any smarter, only more bitter.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
You will never get me to believe that the clientele of this blog is more bitter than the cle.com crowd.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Not what I meant. They are clearly more bitter.
My fault for writing such a long, convoluted post.
I only meant to say belittling them doesn’t help us understand their anger and unwillingness to buy tickets, it just makes us look bitter too.
If we want to properly understand the value of a player who might be traded we need to know when and why it will make cle.commers upset, rather than simply calling them stupid for not noticing the player’s declining WAR or UZR.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I understand perfectly well why they’re angry and refuse to buy tickets. I just don’t care. If the team did what ignorant fans want them to do, we’d never see the outside of the cellar door again.
Uneducated fans hate every trade. The trades they propose are generally our detritus for your superstars. They hated the Blake for Santana trade. If someone is going to criticize trading a Casey Blake rental for Carlos Santana, they deserve ridicule.
There was a context here. I know it is mostly my fault for the long, rambling comments, but I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.
I am not talking about having front office decisions made by polling fans. I am simply suggesting that knowing the potential fallout from trading a popular player, not just in on-field performance, but also in terms of revenue, should be considered when determining a suitable asking price. Not caring about this is something the Yankees might be able to get away with, but not our team.
Given that attendance figures are not strictly related to our won-loss record, we need to see the bigger picture. Never being able to afford the players we develop, let alone acquire the necessary pieces to make a run at the playoffs, would be a vicious circle. Fan interest is a critical element to avoiding perpetual cellar dwelling.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
Uneducated fans don’t hate every trade. You said yourself that they call for (unrealistic) trades all the time. The reasons they hate certain trades are worth examining because these sentiments can have an impact, regardless of how unfounded they might be.
To use your example, we all know it was a good trade now, but it isn’t as though the trade had no downside or risk involved. Santana wasn’t a known quantity at the time, Blake was. We had to wait two years to see any positive payoff, but the negative was on clear display every time Marte took the field. Two years is a long time, not just in baseball terms, but in life more broadly. All sorts of things could have happened. Santana’s injury last year could have been career ending. Had Blake brought back a name that the casual fan might have already heard of, a body that would have trotted out onto the field everyday, not just a prospect, there likely would have been a lot less outrage.
Ultimately, I don’t think anything about the Blake trade reaches the level I am alluding to above. I don’t think that many people stopped coming to games or buying merchandise over Casey Blake. It was just salt in the wound after trading Sabathia, who as the face of the franchise at that point, would qualify as someone for whom the front office ought to have had an inflated asking price.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I think it’s a false choice. We can do our best to understand the typical sports fan’s ticket-buying decisions, and the typical family decisions … and also belittle everyone at cleveland.com.
I am not surprised you would think so.
You are both the insightful thinker behind many a great post, including the laundry comment that I lauded in the first place, and the snarkiest belittler on the board, be the targets cle.commers or regulars here.
I wasn’t presenting a choice, merely stating my preference in what I read. I learn a lot from much of the writing here, but have yet to fathom why so many smart people need the esteem boost of calling other Tribe fans idiots.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
Aw, don’t hate me for being beautiful.
While asking LGTers to treat others more charitably, I think perhaps you are not treating LGTers very charitably. You say we need the esteem boost, but where is the evidence for that? Is that really the most charitable explanation you can come up with to explain our conduct, let alone the best one?
I don’t think it has anything to do with needing an esteem boost (and let’s be honest, some of us could stand to have a little less self-esteem). I think it has to do with these factors:
- As alternative media, blogs and online forums often are concerned with media criticism, and this subject has been a hallmark of LGT — and many other SBN baseball sites — for several years. There is a legitimate discussion to be had regarding the state of mainstream media, including mainstream opinion.
- LGT has been called “a conscious experiment in online community” — it has been so since Ryan and I arrived and started figuring out and setting the terms of civil debate, and here again, SBN is full of laboratories running their own experiments of this type. You complain about “snarky belittling,” but there is real civility here, real discussion, real community and (last but not least) real enjoyment of our ballclub. Again, it is only natural that the LGT “experiment” gets compared to other experiments, whether it’s DBN or cleveland.com, and again, there is a legitimate discussion to be had about that.
- Once one grows accustomed to a higher standard of discourse about baseball, it is genuinely shocking to wander back out into the jungle and see the way people are eating and crapping outside our civilized walls. Is it wrong for people to express their quite genuine surprise and horror? Should they think it but not say it, is that your idea here?
- Finally, and quite significantly, there is genuine frustration regarding the Indians’ low esteem among Cleveland sports fans. It is not stretching the truth to say that the ignorance of fans — as miseducated by Northeast Ohio Indians beat reporters and talk radio — quite literally costs the Indians wins, by encouraging fan disenchantment, which hurts revenues both at the box office and through cable subscriber fees, and which consequently reduces the amount of money that can be spent on player personnel, which reduces the quality of the team on the field. Here again … is this not a legitimate topic for discussion? Should we have to pretend not to notice or soften our contempt?
We must acknowledge, of course, that all this “legitimate discussion” is accompanied by no small amount of self-congratulation. That doesn’t mean, however, that it is not legitimate discussion, quite apart from any one person’s need for an “esteem boost.”
by Jay on Jul 27, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
My comment was never about Upton.
I don’t spend any time following the Rays and never think about them except when they happen to be playing against us. I suspect that the
(if true)portion of your original statement is the crucial element. I have no idea whether whatever fans Tampa has like or dislike the guy.
My beef is with the idea that whether or not a player is a fan favorite should have no bearing on a team’s willingness to trade him. People have favorite players, not all of whom qualify for elite status, and the absence of such players on the team would clearly have an impact on the revenue side, not only in attendance, but in jersey and merchandise sales. Especially for small market teams that replace players for what amounts to small potatoes of cost savings, asserting that player popularity doesn’t matter seems too simplistic.
Again, I know nothing about Upton’s popularity, and I imagine that Longoria, Price, Zobrist, and maybe even Fuld, matter much more to the team’s questionable fanbase, I only argue that if Upton were a fan favorite, it should matter, especially to a team like the Rays.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I see what you’re saying, but it shouldn’t matter enough to hold on to him, should it? It makes your team better in the long run, and you just have to bite the fan reaction bullet sometimes. Trading Victor certainly wasn’t popular.
In the specific case of Upton, all that is true in addition to having his replacement (Jennings) ready.
Steel Nick
Let me be clear that I don’t think Upton is a fan favorite of any type. I think this is all hogwash.
If he is a fan favorite, he’s a fan favorite of the Coco Crisp ilk. Granted, a ruckus may still be raised thereupon. But it’s not like Manny Ramirez leaving in his prime as a superstar, nor is it even like Omar Vizquel leaving, as a non-impact player who has been well liked for over a decade.
So let’s be clear about this. This is an outfielder who averaged 13 HR and batted .250 over the last three seasons. I doubt very much we’re going to see a hue-and-cry even of Crisp-esque proportions.
I agree, I think it’s a stretch to say he’s a fan favorite, or even a fabrication entirely. Just addressing the general idea of trading a fan favorite=bad idea. Sometimes it just has to be done.
Steel Nick
Let me be clear that I defer to you on whether Upton is a fan favorite. I never had an opinion on that subject.
Let me also be clear that if Upton were a fan favorite, then the Rays ought to consider that in their asking price. Not doing so would be foolhardy for a revenue strapped team.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I don’t put much stock in fan favorites drawing people to the stadium, but particularly with regards to a winning team. What few fans the Rays have aren’t going to stop coming to the ballpark because Upton leaves; after all, they have a winning team to watch.
The old, last-place Rays might have considered whether trading a player would hurt fan morale, but a winning team has the luxury of ignoring that.
Again, my point is not about Upton per se.
Tell me though, how the Rays’ finances are not made considerably worse by trading a Longoria, even if it immediately netted them a comparable WAR?
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
I realize your point isn’t specifically about Upton, but he was the example we were using at the time. The point remains with Longoria; if the Rays keep winning, the fans they have aren’t going to stop coming. It’s easy to find a new favorite player if your team is playing .600 ball.
We may have to agree to disagree.
Per this site Longoria is the only Ray in the top 20. That doesn’t seem easily replaceable to me.
I don’t think that if you already like the Rays, that you immediately stop liking the Rays when they trade your favorite player, especially if they are still winning, unless you are a really fickle fan. What I do think happens is you stop buying memorabilia and stop going to the park as often.
Your 2nd favorite Ray may become your new favorite by default, but that doesn’t mean you will continue to hold the same view toward the team and its management. Scaled up to a popular player, this can’t help but translate to noticeable changes in buyer behavior.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
No, obviously not. Whatever value popularity with fans has doesn’t mean it would trump everything else. Fan favorites have to be traded at times as they may be the only assets a team has. My opinion is that these types of trades have to be considered more thoughtfully though, as there is much more of a clear downside in terms of fan reaction that translates into lower revenue.
I am glad that you brought up Victor, because he is a good case in point. No doubt, most of us would consider this a very successful trade. How could anyone not appreciate what Masterson has brought to the field this year? Hagadone will probably contribute soon either on the field or as a trade chip, and Price is young and might come around at some point. Overall it looks pretty good. However, I think it is safe to say that after this trade, fan interest hit a 20 year low.
The issue wasn’t simply one of win-loss records, as the 2010 team marginally outperformed the 2009 team. I can’t separate how much of it belonged to Victor being traded, or Cliff Lee being traded, but that clearly had an impact on the psychology of the Tribe’s fanbase, and fueled the “Dolan is cheap” mentality that continues to dampen the box office receipts.
I wish I had the time and the access to the data to do a proper econometric analysis, but I don’t. Until someone else makes it nice and easy for me to look it up on the internet, I intend to stand by the position that trading Victor Martinez had a much larger impact on our team’s financial position than what can be accounted for by simply comparing his WAR to those of the list of guys who have been behind the plate since his departure.
I hope that our front office considered this in determining what they wanted in return for Victor, and if they didn’t then they didn’t extract enough for him, long run performance of Masterson not withstanding.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
Regarding your first paragraph: Of course. I know we all know this but I’m just going to outline it for the sake of discussion. There are probably three big reasons a player becomes a fan favorite. The top two are, in whatever order, that he is good and he has been on the team for a long time (with personality coming somewhere after those).
I’ll go a step further from what we’re saying—that many times it makes sense to trade the fan favorite—and say that in most cases on a bad team the fan favorite is the most likely to be traded. He is both a) good, and therefore has value to another team, and b) since he in most cases has spent a good amount of time with this team is probably both aging and close to the end of his contract.
Negative fan reaction should have weight in the move, but it can’t outweigh the good business of trading what is probably your best trade chip. We all seem to agree.
Regarding the issue of Victor and this part of your post:
Victor Martinez had a much larger impact on our team’s financial position than what can be accounted for by simply comparing his WAR to those of the list of guys who have been behind the plate since his departure.
I’d say that the greatest impact on a team’s finances is winning. Victor’s trade probably cost them in the short run, but having Masterson and Hagadone/whatever Hagadone will net in a trade on future teams (that would be absent of Victor either way) certainly has a greater impact on our chances of winning than the short-term anger of shortsighted fans. I think every team realizes this.
As for your last paragraph, there’s only so much you can ask for before you’ve asked for too much, and you’re left with Victor walking in free agency which again has a negative impact on the team’s long term chances of winning. Ed Wade would be wise to understand this, since it seems his price for Pence will leave him with nothing but a handful of satisfied shortsighted fans. They’ll disappear, too, when Pence is gone and no prospects have replaced him.
Steel Nick
This whole thing is just a digression anyway, since I’ve never considered Upton a fan favorite. If I had to compare him to an Indian, it would be a slightly-more-successful Fausto. Upton has shown all the ability in the world to be amazing but has frustrated the smart fans a great deal and the stupid fans to the point of no return. Upton has still shown enough that his chances of progression are probably better than we consider Carmona’s, but I’m not sure Rays fans are willing to wait around and see if it happens.
Steel Nick
I think that we are largely in agreement here. I have already said that wins are the most important part, just not the only factor involved in producing revenue.
The only thing I quibble with is
Victor’s trade probably cost them in the short run, but having Masterson and Hagadone/whatever Hagadone will net in a trade on future teams (that would be absent of Victor either way) certainly has a greater impact on our chances of winning than the short-term anger of shortsighted fans.
I don’t believe the anger of fans affects winning in any direct way, but it certainly affects revenues. Revenues in turn help determine what will be acceptable personnel expense moving forward, which may have consequences on future wins. There are lots of moving parts here though. There is no long run beyond a series of short runs. I just think that there is specific team based value that goes along with a fan favorite that might not be transferable, but exists nonetheless and should be considered before accepting any old offer. If it means avoiding a serious short term hit, that might be revenue neutral or better compared to a complete rebuild with fewer jersey sales or butts in seats.
Ultimately, we probably needed to trade Victor to get where we are today. Masterson has been pretty important. But why think that Victor was leaving either way? He wasn’t CC. He cried on his way out. I think he would have accepted a reasonable offer. I don’t know if we could have gotten a Masterson type guy some other way, but if we could have, then it would be nice to still have Victor around despite his current salary.
A perfectionist, only without all the results.
just because the ladies like grady, should we give him an extension?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I have serious doubts that a career .256 hitter with an OPS+ of 103 and non-stellar defense does enough to be a “fan favorite”. One of the main components is playing well and meeting expectations. Omar was not popular in cleveland because he was a nice guy or was an interesting personality, its because he was a gold glove fielder and made highlight reel plays.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
omar’s personality certainly helped, but fans appreciate production. Even guys who are jerks who produce for their clubs are not rejected by said clubs (Albert Belle, LeBron) and the fans often choose to ignore it and still like those players (as long as they stay with the club).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
A good part of the cult of Omar was the way he acted in the public eye, beginning with the parade in 1995. To say otherwise is revisionist history. You need production, but fan favorites are made on what else they do.
omar’s personality certainly helped,
Omar had personality which helped him become a fan favorite. However, if omar didn’t have a personality but was a GG fielder and a good hitter, would fans still like him? Probably. much more likely than if he had a personality but sucked.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Sucked and BJ Upton are a lot different. Fans don’t flock to talent the way you think. Casey Blake was more loved in this town than Albert Belle was. Again, saying it was all talent is revisionist. Omar was an icon by the end of 1995, and he hadn’t learned to hit a lick yet.
and he hadn’t learned to hit a lick yet.
But he was still making slick fielding plays that were entertaining on the field.
Again, saying it was all talent is revisionist.
why keep including this unless its to misrepresent my point? I never said personality doesn’t matter.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Probably overstated that. Belle was nowhere near as beloved as lesser players have been, because of his personality. That better?
yes. thats for certain. If he wasn’t Albert Belle, he might have been better liked. But if he didn’t hit like Albert Belle, not a lot of people would have the urge to go to watch him.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Read my post. I never said that him being a “fan favorite” would effect the package that we are going to have to offer…I was just saying that to help illustrate the kind of player we will be getting: someone who the fans there seem to like (despite his poor attitude).
And I am not just pulled that our my ass, its just based on what the Tampa Bay fans during their series in Cleveland were saying—and there were some. It’s not scientific, and I guess I was wrong, but it seemed like he was pretty popular.
I don’t much care for your condensing attitude. I think most of us here are better than the Cleveland.com crowd.
This was an article that I read recently that got me thinking that he would not be a terrible addition at all. I did misread the popularity bullet: it was in comparison to players with the Nationals.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/766746-10-reasons-bj-upton-should-be-a-washington-national
Also…the whole fan favorite thing does seem to get wrestled with the D-Rays fans themselves. “Like” seems safe…but I think many thought he would be more than what he is, and are not all that happy about that.
http://www.draysbay.com/2011/4/26/2134302/b-j-upton-tampa-bay-rays-same-story
But again, I said fan favorite based (misguidedly) on that SB Nation article, but also on my own experiences with the Rays fans that I have met—the dozen or so all seemed to like him. Again, I know it’s not scientific, it was just what I assumed talking to all of them.
Anyway…in the end I don’t really care…and I don’t feel like arguing about it. I do know that I would happily take him on the Indians for a season and a half to see what he does (depending, or course, on what he costs us).
Let me offer you another suggestion here: Avoid taking bleacher report seriously.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Heading down to the game to bring home a win. Let’s hope we have a new outfielder and starting pitcher by the time I get home!
A blockbuster: Ty Wiggington (OF and 3B platoon), Ianetta and Ubaldo Jimenez for Fausto, Donald, Kelvim De la Rosa, LeVon Washington and Chen.
Not sure how I would feel about that, only because I sort of have a man crush on Chen, and not sold on Ubaldo…but he would be better than Fasuto, correct?
That wouldn’t get it done. It could be enough for Jiminez himself, an excellent pitcher with three years left on his contract. I believe he had an injury and effectiveness issues earlier this year, but he’s turned it around. A top prospect like White might not be necessary, but who knows, the Rockies might not want to trade him.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Ubaldo can void the 2014 club option if he’s traded (which he certainly would). That means he’s more valuable to the Rockies than he is to the club that acquires him. He’s not making all that much money for the next two years, and the Rox surely think they can contend in the NL West next season, so I think it would take a very hefty package to acquire him.
I would say that Chen and LeVon are both B+/A- prospects if White is an A. Chen could be an everyday catcher for a AAA ballclub in 2012 the way he is playing (and at 23, that is very young for a catcher to be that high) and LeVon has one of the higher upsides in this organization.
I do think it will take more, unless doesn’t dominate in 2012 like he did in ’10.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Ubaldo is definitely intriguing and a nice buy low candidate, but do we want to give up 2 top prospects? Its just something the organization has to think about. We have much more of a glut of capable starters and good AAA hurlers than we do outfielders and OF prospects. Our best OF prospects are a AA guys who is at best, a poor man’s juan pierre (Jordan Henry) and a guy who cannot stay healthy (Wegz).
I would be more comfortable if we could have Wigginton for a year or so longer and if I felt we could sign Choo to a longer deal.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
What top prospects? Chen and Washington? Kipnis, Chiz, Pomz, and White are/were top prospects. From them, there’s a clear step down to the rest of the prospects. Chen, Washington, and de la Cruz have value, but for someone like Jimenez, they’re definitely tradeable. Don’t overvalue them.
Jiminez won’t come cheap, either; don’t expect anything like a “buy low” package for him. We’d have to give up plenty of value in return. Which we won’t, especially since as Chemo pointed out he’s more valuable to the Rockies than to the club that would acquire him.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
I think I said somewhere on these threads, Chiz, Kipnis and Pomz are all A/A+ prospects. I think Chen and Washington are in the B+/A- range depending on what you think of their potential and other issues. They might not be the “top prospects” but they are the next level down imo.
But i don’t think they would want to offer enough to get Jiminez
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He’d probably cost us 2 solid prospects. Can’t really come up with any names right now as it depends on what Tampa Bay is looking for obviously, but I don’t something like Beau Mills and Kluber would cut it.
i’d rather not give up Chen because I think his value is higher than 2.5 of Upton. I think they will want Chen because they have very few Catcher prospects who have polish as a hitter. They also could want a corner IF guy, but we don’t have a lot of those.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
That’s if you believe Chen can stick behind the plate.
by rockemsockem on Jul 24, 2011 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Chen would be a good sell-high candidate. The odds seem against him sticking at catcher, making his bat questionable. Even if he stays at catcher, the current Santana/Marson should be acceptable until the Perez/Monsalve/Lavisky/Lowerys show their heads. The Indians don’t have a deeper position in the minors (aside from relief arms) than catcher.
Other sell-high/blocked trade candidates would seem to include:
Cord Phelps
Zach McAllister
Nick Hagadone
I could get behind including Hagadone in a trade. I don’t know how “high” of a sell this really is, though, considering that he is widely viewed to be a non-starter (no pun intended).
Also, I don’t think Hagadone is blocked. In fact, I think we’ll need him before the year is done. If Raffy or Sipp falter or catch the injury epidemic, what other lefty do we have? I know we don’t have to have 2 in the pen, but… Huff?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
I have to agree with you on the sell high guys. Phelps will never be more than a UI here because most of the IF is set (and I have more confidence in Kipnis developing as an everyday 2B than him). mccallister I believe is possibly overachieving a tiny bit.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I agree. I don’t see us keeping Chen to put on the major league ballclub, i just think we can get much better value in a trade for a 22 year old catcher who has an OPS of over .800 in AA.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I think he has more trade potential (at 22, Ramirez was still in Kinston) and has performed better in the field, but similar players I guess.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m just cautioning about getting too worked up over a player in his first season at Double A, who is in a position that’s not likely to stick, and who is still a long way from translating success in the majors.
I agree. I really am not all that excited for him on the ml level with this team (unless he can improve his bat and become a corner IF), but I think Chen as a prospect is worth Upton as a player straight up. jmo.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I wouldn’t mind it for that package. You have to deal with the issue of if you feel you can resign upton. Hagadone is good enough that they may bite, but not good enough that he would be a huge loss (especially considering our glut of relief arm prospects)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
What did Jamey Carroll net us? Can’t recall.
by stuart dean on Jul 24, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
C’mon Zeke. Line drive.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Dude, I like this kid. He just has to figure out how to read the pitcher. He’s got great speed, but you need more than athleticism to steal bases in the majors, just like a track star who succeeds in college football needs more than athleticism to succeed as an NFL wide receiver.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Grant of McCovey Chronicles:
BJ Upton since 2009: .239/.318/.403. Rowand since ’09: .246/.301/.389. Sounds great, but only if we can give up six or seven prospects.
Even though he admits that Upton has an OPS+ advantage over Rowand in that span, I’ll give him that.
This is why Upton is maddening. He has the talent/youth to believe that there’s more to come, but there’s no way he can be worth a lot on upside alone. I still can’t decide if I would support his acquisition, and if I did, for what price.
Steel Nick
Upton is not a highly valuable defensive player. decent, but Rowand has an edge there. Without the speed factor, its basically a wash and he hasn’t been the most efficient base stealer. Upton only once in a full season has stolen 80% of bases.
Upton is not a bad player, he is just overrated because he puts up a lot of counting stats, but is not a huge run producer.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Prior to this season Upton has never had a negative UZR/150 while playing center field.
He was 12th in all of baseball in EQBRR (equivalent base running runs) last season as well. So he’s shown ability to both play defense well and run the bases.
You may be correct that he is not better than Rowand (I don’t have the time to look it up at this moment), but I’d suggest that Upton can be a “valuable” defensive and base-running commodity with league average bat. Indeed a better player than what is currently in the outfield in Cleveland.
Better in the field and on the bases than Carrera even?
Upton has been, at least according to UZR, substantially better in the field than Rowand in the recent past (15.9 to 1.9 advantage in 08-10). So he’s certainly useful there. Upton’s babip this year is .273, well down from his career mark of .326. His WAR of 1.5 would be fourth on our team, right behind Hafner.
No, but Carrera hasn’t shown any indication in the minors or majors that he can hit anywhere close to league average. He’s a fourth outfielder if there ever was one. A great defensive sub late in games and an even better pinch runner late in games.
He is a solid fielder. you are misrepresenting what I said.
I said he was a decent fielder and he isn’t the most efficient base stealer (but still contributes runs).
With all this being said, I wouldn’t mind Upton because we don’t have a ton in the OF, but I would only take him at this point as a buy low candidate and I don’t think the Rays are going to be sellers anyways.
It remains to be seen what Zeke can do at the dish, but Upton may be an upgrade over him, but I am not sure if I would want to give up as much as we would have to.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Upton is undoubtedly an improvement over Carerra at the plate. Not even close once his babip rebounds.
I agree he is an improvement, but I can’t say for certain because Zeke is such an unknown. Upton’s BABIP isn’t THAT much off his average the last couple years.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
53 points less than his career of .326 and 31 less than his .304 mark from last year.
by rockemsockem on Jul 25, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
As rockemsockem points out, yes it is. Besides, Carrera isn’t an unknown, he’s a light hitting, batting average driven player whose walk rate in the minors has never approached Upton’s in the majors. I don’t think anyone reasonably thinks Carrera has the chance to be Upton.
I am not looking at career, I am looking at what he has done in the last few years, which has been right around .300. All that really effects is that he may be better than having a slightly below average OPS+
And Ezequiel IS an unknown because while some guys’ games do not translate to the majors, some guys show skills after a year or so they never showed in the minors. Brantley’s ISO numbers right now are better than his career numbers in the minors.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Brantley’s Iso has steadily increased at each level, Carrera’s have decreased.
by rockemsockem on Jul 25, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob Feller never won a game in the minors.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 26, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Good Lord, batting average again?
Look … batting average basically is always stupid to look at. Sometimes interesting, almost never important.
But it is especially stupid to look at for minor league numbers. You’ve got to pay attention to peripherals in the minors, because it simply gets tougher to tell balls from strikes in the majors.
I KNOW batting average is not useful. if you follow the conversation instead of finding a chance to pounce on someone using “idiot stats”, you would see the stats I talk about are ISO and BABIP.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
If you really knew, you wouldn’t post this:
I am looking at what he has done in the last few years, which has been right around .300. All that really effects is that he may be better than having a slightly below average OPS+
What you’re saying here is very nearly the exact opposite of what is correct.
like I said, the .300 was referring to BABIP
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I could not determine that from your post or the one that preceded it. I’m glad you were referring to BAbip.
I thought it was implied in the context of previous comments, but I wasn’t specific. I have learned from this website not to use batting average to prove, really anything. Also, reading moneyball and bill james books didn’t hurt either
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
The appropriate time to use any stat is when it’s relevant and significant in the context of the discussion or individual point at hand. Batting average is not different from any other stat in that sense, but the “big surprise” is that it’s rare that’s especially relevant or significant stat to the point at hand.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
The appropriate context for batting average – if such a thing exists – is miniscule.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
You are overlooking the value of idiot stats with regard to predicting how the player will be regarded on cleveland.com forums.
He’s not unknown, we have years of stats on him. He’s mostly punchless, fast, and has a batting average driven OBP and relatively poor plate discipline. He’s like a really, really, really poor man’s Juan Pierre. His ceiling is fourth outfielder, and that’s a reach. He isn’t anything close to BJ Upton, and he never will be.
BJ upton the last few years isn’t anything close to what people think of when they think of BJ Upton either.
You really like strawmanning people. I wasn’t saying that he was close to BJ upton, just that you cannot judge a players career based on a few games in the majors.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
And fwembt’s counter is that it isn’t just a few games in the majors that can be used to draw an expectation on, you have to include the player’s minor league track record.
I would say minor league #s help us know what we can reasonably expect, but they aren’t always 100% an accurate predictor.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
No, but you’ve set up a scenario where we can’t draw any conclusions about Carrera at all, if we can’t look at his major league stats (SSS) and can’t look at his minor league stats (because maybe he has latent talents that are just waiting to spring forth). Carrera has a proven history of non-performance, so the assumption has to be he’s an offensive liability until he demonstrates otherwise.
that is true. I am just not one to draw all kinds of conclusions on a player in the first place.
I hope he proves otherwise and am reserving severe judgement until he proves he can’t.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I don’t think anyone believes that we know exactly what any one player will do, for anything close to an absolute certainty. What we are commenting on here is probabilities, and the very strong probability is that Carrera will not ever be the caliber of player who should be in the everyday lineup. More to the point, it behooves the Indians to make decisions based on that very strong probability.
and the very strong probability is that Carrera will not ever be the caliber of player who should be in the everyday lineup
and I won’t disagree with that, but the combination of the eternal optimist in me and the person who does not want to jump to conclusions is holding out hope that he is better than that.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
That’s great, I really have no problem with that, but aren’t we discussing what the Indians could do and should do?
I would support his acquisition fully. I don’t quite understand why so many folks are down on a 100 OPS+ center fielder with plus defense and baserunning. What is our outfield anyway on the 40-man roster?
*Choo – Perennial all star up until this year’s disaster. 2 more years
*Sizemore – 4 surgeries and 2 years. Complete wild card. 1 more year
*Brantley – Promising year on several levels and may establish a higher level of performance
*The Veteran Retreads (Duncan, Kearns, and Buck)
*Zeke – 4th outfielder ceiling
That’s pretty much it right? We’re going to have to get an outfielder next year anyway. I guess the rub here is I doubt he can be had for one of Chiz, Kip, White, or Pomz.
by cheech99 on Jul 24, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
his career OPS+ is 103, but that also includes a season where he went 136 and another where he went 108, neither of which are really in “recent years”. I don’t know how exactly to figure out OPS+ average over multiple years, but its definitely under 100 over the last 3. His defense is also not the most consistent year to year.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
If you are going to throw out the 136 and the 108, you should throw out the 56 as a 21 yr old rookie, and the 84 as a 24 yr old then as well. You get right around 100 OPS+ total.
Here’s a link to the last two seasons and this season averaged out to 97 OPS+
His three year average prior to this season was a 99 OPS+
cheech99’s comment stands if you allow for a deviation of 3 points south of 100, and again, other than this season he hasn’t posted a UZR/150 below 0 (or league average for the position) since playing center field.
I know I’m rambling here, but just to get it out:
At this point my ideal move is one with 2011 and 2012 in mind. In one move, the best possible trade from an asset/cost ratio is Reed Johnson/Matt Garza. In multiple moves it’s Melky Cabrera and Aaron Harang.
Steel Nick
#tigers really want kuroda. mccourt really wants to pay his laundry bill. a match? #tradedeadline
—Heyman. I hate the Tigers.
Steel Nick
Apparently the Rays are asking for a lot in return for Upton. According to Crasnick they’d want one of Teheran, Delgado, Minor or Vizcaino from the Braves. So they’d ask us for Pomeranz, White or Kipnis in all likelihood. That’s pretty insane.
Rosenthal’s “he WILL be traded” stance makes it seem like Tampa wants to get rid of him (and presumably his laziness or whatever bothers them). And unless there’s a large bidding war, they’re not getting a Tehrehan, Delgado, Minor Pomeranz or Kipnis. I nave no idea who the Vizcaino guy is but I assume he’s a top prospect.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Sure, they can ask for the moon several days before the trade deadline. Let’s see what they’re asking for on July 30 after every other GM laughs politely at their requests.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 25, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, that could’ve been bad.
A friend of friends died a couple of years ago in a tragic softball accident. He and another outfielder were going after the ball; he dove, hit the other player’s knee with his head, and was out instantly. He never regained consciousness and died a couple of days later. Here’s a link to the softball tournament now held annually in his memory.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
Random deadline thoughts:
Carmona for Rasmus?
Willingham and Harden for……? and move Harden to pen.
Harang and Ludwick for……?
I’d stay away from Upton. Maturity in question. Who needs those distractions?
Wouldn’t be surprised to see one of Sipp, R. Perez, or Hagadone traded. Who would we least want to lose?
Rasmus is an interesting option and I’m surprised that we haven’t been linked to him. Sure, he bats lefthanded, but has enormous upside.
I also like your idea of Willingham and Harden. Not sure what we’d have to give up, but can’t be much since both players have question marks. Harden would be nice in the pen, however we do have more than enough relievers so it’s not a big need.
Not interested in Harang or Ludwick.
If Rasmus could be had for Carmona, I think it would’ve been done yesterday. That’s not close to a fair trade, is it?
I think NL teams were watching when Fausto ran the bases recently.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 25, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, Rasmus supposedly is not liked by LaRussa and they have Jay to play cf. The Cards could use a starter and maybe Duncan can “fix” Carmona.
We need to trade for Jay, not Rasmus, then make a deal with the Rangers for Hamilton. Then all we’d need is to find someone named Madison for an all-Publius outfield.
by ken from alexandria on Jul 26, 2011 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Only if they add a “Henry”, as in, Patrick Henry to check their schemes toward an all-too powerful outfield. I prefer the Anti-Federalists. Their fears were confirmed.
[Deleted, 18th century politics]
by YoDaddyWags on Jul 26, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I found this interesting.
Apparently the Indians offered the Mets a good player and to take on salary for Beltran, but Beltran declined the trade.
Interesting, from Peter Gammons:
Never mind that the Indians did offer to pick up all of Carlos Beltran’s remaining Mets contract and give up a good player in return. The deal Scott Boras negotiated with the Mets for Beltran includes a no-trade clause, which Boras refers to as a “ring clause,” meaning that if things ground to an end in New York, Beltran had the right to choose where best to go get a ring before entering the free-agent market, and Cleveland did not fit.
Full article here
F Boras, and F the moronic GMs who add a no-trade clause on top of a ridiculous overpay contract. Morons.
by Jay on Jul 26, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And to trade Lonnie Chisenhall, Jason Kipnis, Alex White or Drew Pomeranz for a two-month rental would be absurd.
Also from the article. So we were going to get Beltran without giving up any of those guys. That would have rocked.
i wouldn’t have wanted to trade gomez
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 26, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Screw Scott Boras and screw Carlos Beltran.
by Erie's Scribe on Jul 27, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of good situations, the Kansas City Royals’ signing of Melky Cabrera(notes) for $1.25 million with another quarter million in performance bonuses is turning out among the best signings of the offseason. Cabrera ranks 30th in the AL in adjusted OPS, with his on-base and slugging percentages a combined 21 percent better than league average, and in an increasingly crowded outfield market he’s considered a nice fallback option.
One problem: He might not be available.
The Royals are leaning toward keeping Cabrera for next season, when he’s arbitration eligible and, though due a raise, would remain a bargain if he continues to produce.
Arbitration guys, help me out. Cots says he was signed as a free agent this offseason. How are free agents eligible for arbitration? It does say just over 4 years of service time… so I guess.. but that seems odd. I guess that’s an even better deal for the Indians if they got him, but all the more reason to keep him.
Steel Nick
My understanding is that he was non-tendered by Atlanta, which made him a free agent. At that point he was free to sign with any team, but he was still in his arbitration years, so the team he signed with would still have control over him for the remainder those years.
Jay or someone else might have a more thorough explanation.
I guess it’s the same way for Shelley Duncan? B-ref says “Eligible for arbitration: 2012. Free agent: 2016.”
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
You got it exactly right. I believe we were in a similar situation with Ron Belliard, but the classic Indians example of this is Casey Blake, whom we signed as a free agent and then held under team control for six years.
Melky was a great signing for KC, no question. His agent could have protected him from this by insisting on some kind of an out clause.
Also in case you don’t follow LGT’s Twitter…
NYPost_Mets Mike Puma
Beltran says he never nixed deal with the Indians: “[The Mets] haven’t come to me,” he said. “When they come to me, we’ll talk about it.”
Steel Nick
So Boras nixed the deal for him. Plausible deniability. Beltran gets to look like the good guy keeping his options open.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 27, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, someone else reported that the Indians walked away feeling like Boras is running this.
Steel Nick
Heyman is reporting that there’s a lot of smoke around Edwin Jacskon, the Cardinals, Colby Rasmus, and the Blue Jays. Not sure if White Sox and Jays are competing for Rasmus or if 3-way is in works. It’s in the twitter block.
It sounds like it’s a done deal.
But if the Blue Jays have Rasmus… and Bautista… a guy can dream that Travis Snider is available.
Steel Nick
Actually not a Snider fan
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 27, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I know. I gave up on him too soon in a dynasty league
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 27, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hammy just announced a done deal with Edwin Jackson going to Toronto with someone else in exchange for Justin Frasor, but he was interrupted by a run scoring for the Tribe.
You are reading my signature.
JoeStrauss Joe Strauss
Trade of Rasmus to Toronto imminent for Jackson, Dotel, Rzepczynski. More @stltoday.
StL Post-Dispatch reporter.
Steel Nick
@williamfleitch Will Leitch
[Cries.] RT @Buster_ESPN If Blue Jays-Rasmus deal is really done, at year’s end, STL will have a lefty reliever/draft pick for Colby Rasmus.
You are reading my signature.
A friend of mine in St. Louis just texted that she’s not coming back from her lunch break and has started ordering drinks.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 27, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am baffled. It’s possible Mozeliak had his heart set on Edwin Jackson and turned down better offers, but it’s really disappointing knowing we probably could and should have offered a better package.
I’d take Jeanmar Gomez over Edwin Jackson straight up
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 27, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s foolish. Edwin Jackson has been very good the last two years—if you were trying to make the playoffs, you’d be acting unreasonably if you chose Gomez over Jackson for the remainder of the season.
Well, yes, but I’m talking about a hypothetical Indians deal here, not the Cards.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 27, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but in this instance you can see why it’s possible that the Indians just didn’t have the main thing St. Louis wanted.
Steel Nick
Ah, true.
I hate everything the NL stands for.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions
This is really really strange
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 27, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like the Cardinals didn’t want to just swap Rasmus for a couple arms – they wanted to clear out several players.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 27, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
SI_JonHeyman cards turned down niemann and howell for rasmus, reports @JoeStrauss
35 minutes ago
Retweeted by LetsGoTribe
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Not really. I’ve heard rumor of a deal involving Pomz, Gomez, and two PTBNL from a list of Weglarz, Knapp, Bryson, and Gio Soto for him.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Can Jimenez hit? The Indians need a bat, specifically an OF bat. Really, really bad do they need a bat. It would be great, though to acquire Jimenez. I wonder, if this is true, if Antonetti is trying to add a Rockie bat as well.
I suppose it makes sense if you feel like there’s nothing to be done about this year, but plenty to be done about next year and beyond. This move would be going for it outside of just 2011.
I’d still like to see the same deal for a hitter, because the outfield won’t fix itself next year. I doubt crossing our fingers on Sizemore and Choo makes for a contender.
Steel Nick
Bat>Arm at this point. I don’t like this move only for the fact that I feel we need hitting first.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I hate to agree with this statement given how hard it is to find good pitching, but I don’t know how many more games in which we score one or two runs I can watch. Our pitching looks pretty solid right now if we could just push a few guys across. Of course, how I feel about what we get is largely determined by what we give up for it. If the price is right, I love the idea of moving on Ubaldo.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
exactly. Its a SSS right now (the starters have been hot) but during this streak (starting with the last 2 games against minny), the Indians’ starters are going 6 2/3 with a 2.12 ERA. 99.99% of the time, you have a record above .500 in that situation. Even though pitching is up all across the league, I agree its a solid rotation but the hitting just stinks.
I’d love to get Ubaldo for the right price, but if I had to choose one, I want an outfielder. Even if its picking up Coco.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Pat Burrell. Minor league deal. Now.
/desperate
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Can someone explain to me why Edwin Jackson is held in such high regard? Am I missing something in thinking he is just a league average starter?
Fifth team in about three years. He can’t be held in that high regard.
My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.
Cliff Lee has played for five in four years, if you count the Phillies twice…
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 28, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I was listening a Chris Antonelli interview on the way into work this morning. One of his last statements was to ‘pay attention’ to the sports news today…said he was optimistic something could happen. Also seemed like there could be multiple moves for the Indians before the trade deadline. This was on WTAM and hopefully will be posted later today.
Both Shapiro and Antonelli are saying positive things as regards a trade, and broadcasting their comments too. Unlike them to be so public, but Jay’s argument from another part of this long thread applies: the Hoynes-inspired fan base has been so vocal, and is so ready not to cut the Dolans and the front office no slack at all, that I worry they will do something a little nuts. Don’t let the fans overrule your good judgement Chris!
It’s right at the end.
CHRIS: It’s an exciting time. Stay tuned today.
WILLS & SNYDER: —Hold on hold on. Stay tuned today?
CHRIS: Potentially.
Steel Nick
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Indians in serious talks to get #Cubs’ Fukudome. #tradedeadline #MLB
Wrong Cub.
Steel Nick
Fukudome gets on base and has no power. He is arb-eligible until 2014. He’s a lefty that has a reverse split this year but is better against RHP for his career.
He’s like an outfield version of Jamey Carroll.
Steel Nick
DKnobler
Actually Fukudome to Indians better than just a chance. Very close to happening. #tradedeadline
Say we get Fukudome, that makes for a lot of speed when Choo comes back. You could bat:
1. Brantley
2. Fukudome
3. Cabrera
4. Choo
5. Hafner
6. Santana
Might relieve some of the pressure from Santana, too, by moving him down the lineup and gives you 4 guys with speed before Hafner and Santana get up. Not sure this move “helps” us tremendously, but an on base guy is better than either Kearns or Buck.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:08 AM EDT reply actions
It does? I don’t see any suggestion that Fukudome is fast. He has 27 steals in 4 years. And he’s 34.
Steel Nick
really just assumed since he batted lead off for the Cubs.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Getting large swaths of Asia interested in the Tribe could help with revenue.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 28, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Rosenthal just tweeted that it’s done. Fukodome to Indians “for two minor leaguers.”
My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.
Too bad the Twins now play in an open air stadium.
by kennesawmountainwahoo on Jul 28, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know this isn’t a blockbuster, but we are getting a batter that has a higher wOBA than any of our current outfielders (or any that will play in the next month rather) and is more .60 wOBA points higher than Buck, Kearns, and Carerra.
And the Cubs are picking up most of the money in his contract…I think this is a pretty good move
yes, i’m easily talking myself into admitting this is a decent deal, pending that the two prospects are not 2012-2014 contributors.
You are reading my signature.
Hoynes really the only guy calling them “prospects,” and I think it’s just a misnomer. Everyone else saying “minor leaguers.” Maybe I’m reading too much into it but I’ve personally always made a big distinction between the two.
Steel Nick
I’ve personally always made a big distinction between the two.
Agreed.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Hoynes can’t tell the difference. All minor leaguers are prospects to Hoynes.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 28, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tony’s going to lose his mind.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I suppose we all have our personal favorites, but Tony absolutely loved Abreu (almost as much as Brown).
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Loves that BB:K for an almost 22 year old in A+ ?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
He liked the power potential, I believe.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Well. At least we gave up zero of worth.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
If this is true, then I guess you can’t get too mad about this trade. Those guys aren’t worth jack, although I did always kind of want Carlton Smith to make it to the bigs just so at least we got something from the Smith bros.
And everyone in the stands could do THE CARLTON when he came out to pitch!
by emd2k3 on Jul 28, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll at least say this, I think trading for Fukudome is a hell of a lot better than trading for Ryan Ludwig. That was one player I was hoping they’d stay far away from.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 10:51 AM EDT reply actions
agree completely. I’d take this over Ludwick any day. But I hope antonetti wasn’t thinking that this was going to get the radio call-in crowd all charged up and ready to buy a bunch of tickets.
My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.
No, I agree. He was just saying “stay tuned” on the radiom, according to a post above. I took that to mean, “….because we’ve got something huge coming…” You know, my own delusions of grandeur and all…
My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.
"….because we’ve got something huge coming…"
This what I’m talkin bout boyzzzzz.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I was ready to hate it in the other thread. Now I’m just meh.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Now they’ve started it though, I need more fix. Trades!
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 10:55 AM EDT reply actions
May not need to be said, but the Lower Reserved seats in the OF just got a bit less family-friendly.
You are reading my signature.
More specifically “F*ck U”
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, Buster Olney is tweeting multiple teams are interested in R. Furcal. You can’t tell me we couldn’t trade Donald (who could produce Furcal’s awful slash line this year easily) for something of greater value??
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions
I guess that’s true, but I guess I also saw him as a major leaguer until he hurt himself in spring training.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I just love that the Cubs are kicking in money here. Let’s us send cash the other direction in another trade.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 11:04 AM EDT reply actions
So are they completely opposed to the idea of trading Garza or what?
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 28, 2011 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
Will CHC throw in Reed Johnson and Garza, too?
by JulioBernazard on Jul 28, 2011 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
twithersAP Tom Withers
Let’s just say this Indians trade not going over big among the Wahoo faithful.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions
Because the “Wahoo faithful” wouldn’t know a decent trade if it bit them in the ASS
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
SizemoreFan SizemoreFan.com
@MLBastian @twithersAP Because the same “Tribe faithful” online are the same that call into sports talk radio and post on cleveland.com
SizemoreFan is leading a charge on Twitter. No idea who they are
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. Getting hard to keep up with this one when I have to close my browser.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
RuiterWrong Daryl Ruiter
#Indians could use 1 more starter & a right handed bat; Fukudome not exactly cranking out HRs & RBI – 15 2B 3 HR & 13 RBI & .273 avg – yuck
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
“Welcome, Mr. Fukudome” (sung to the tune of “Welcome to the Terrordome” by Public Enemy)
We got so much trouble on our mind
We refuse to lose
Sell more tickets
Hear John Adams get wicked
The Tribe to you to push the back to Red
Attack so we sat and dealt
Then slapped the Mac(Intosh)
Now we’re ready to take it
(You know we like it) huh
Hear our fanatacism roll “Oh”
Never be a outfielder like me go solo
Right field lazer anastasia amaze ya
Ways to blaze your brain and train ya fans
The way we’re livin’, forgiven’
What prospects we’re givin’ up
X on the flex hit me now
We don’t know about later
As for now we know how to avoid the sports talk radio paranoid
Man we’ve had it up to here
Tribe gear we wear got ‘em goin’ in fear
Keith Law said
Read just a bit ago
Not quittin’ though
Signed the hard runner
Work to keep from gettin’ jerked
Changin’ some ways
To way back in the late ‘90s days
Raw metaphysically bold
Never followed a code
Still dropped a load
Never question what we are God knows
Cause we’re comin’ from the heart
What we got better get some
(Get on up) hustler on the basepaths
Snakebitten by injuries
Been spit in the face
But the Tribe keep fittin’
Respects been givin’, how’s ya hittin’?
Now we can’t protect a lead with these defects
Check the record
The division an intentional wreck
Played off as some intellect
Ump made the call, took the fall
Broke the laws
Not our fault the Twinks are fallin’ off
Known as fair and square
Throughout our years
So I growl at would-be taters that are foul
Red to the bone our home is your home
So welcome, Mr. Fukudome
by JulioBernazard on Jul 28, 2011 11:26 AM EDT reply actions
MikeJudge1027 Mike Judge
The #Indians trade is an absolute joke. Unbelievable.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 28, 2011 11:27 AM EDT reply actions
I really like his movies and television series, but not his thoughts on this trade.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 29, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
ugksports Yuji Kondo
カブス福留選手がクリーブランド・インディアンズにトレードされたと知り合いの記者が報じている。確定らしい。RT @SI_JonHeyman theres agreement on fukudome to #indians, w/ just logistics to go. #cu…
You are reading my signature.
Heyman’s a better translator than any of us gave him credit for.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
- The Juice: Mesoraco’s grand slam helps Reds complete four-game sweep of Braves
- Please hold: Indians’ Joe Smith jumps the gun on relief appearance
- Local radio host honors Cubs’ Tony Campana with parody song
- Roy Halladay bobblehead with glove on wrong hand selling on MLB.com
