Indians acquire Ubaldo Jimenez for Pomeranz, White, Gardner, McBride
by Ryan on Jul 31, 2011 12:54 AM EDT
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PrintFULL UPDATE 12:30 a.m. [Jay]
The Indians reportedly have acquired top Ubaldo Jimenez from the Colorado Rockies, in exchange for their best two pitching prospects — LHP Drew Pomeranz and RHP Alex White — as well as RHP prospect Joe Gardner and minor league OF Matt McBride.
Jimenez was the top starter available on the trade market, and this move is, by far, the biggest deal of a busy trade season for the Indians — arguably the biggest move made by any team. Late Saturday night, the Indians officially announced the trade of IF Orlando Cabrera to the Giants for power-challenged OF prospect Thomas Neal. The Indians acquired OF Kosuke Fukudome from the Cubs on Thursday, and reportedly remain in the hunt for Ryan Ludwick as the 4 p.m. Sunday non-waiver trade deadline fast approaches.
Jimenez will be examined by Indians club physicians Sunday morning, and the trade is contingent on his passing that physical. Per club policy, the Indians have not announced the Jimenez and will not comment on it until and unless it becomes official. Pomeranz will be announced as a "Player To Be Named Later" in the deal, as minor leaguers cannot be traded until the first anniversary of their signing, which in his case is August 15.
Jimenez will be under contract to the Indians through the 2013 season on a very club-friendly deal. He'll make about 900K for the rest of 2011, $4.2 million in 2012, and $5.75 million on a club option in 2013. There is also a club option for 2014, but it essentially converts to a mutual option in the event of a trade. Jimenez led all NL pitchers in WAR last season, when he finished 3rd in Cy Young voting, and he's 10th among all pitchers in WAR since the start of 2009.
Jimenez struggled early this season with reduced velocity and a minor thumb injury, but the thumb injury healed, and his velocity reduction has gone from 3 mph to more like 1.7 mph. Somewhat unusually, Jimenez took the mound Saturday night despite strong indications that a deal was imminent. He pitched poorly, evidently highly distracted by the trade talks, and was pulled after one inning and just 45 pitches. He likely will start for the Indians on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Pomeranz, 22, was the #5 overall pick in the 2010 draft and made an impressive pro debut this season, moving from a Top 100 consensus ranking to a Top 20-40 guy. He ends his career in the Indians organization with a 1.98, 112 strikeouts and 38 walks over 18 starts.
White, who will soon turn 23, was the Indians' first round draft pick a year earlier, in 2009, and was almost as impressive as Pomeranz in his 2010 pro debut, also for Kinston and Akron. Pegged by at least some Indians officials as a pitcher likely to end up in the bullpen, he started 17 games and posted a 2.45 ERA over 150+ innings, with 117 strikeouts and 46 walks. While the peripherals weren't impressive, he started 2011 on a roll in Columbus and made his big-league debut for the Indians on April 30. Just 2.5 quality starts later, however, he landed on the disabled list with a sprained middle finger, and he was set to make his first rehab start for Akron later today (Sunday).
Gardner put up an impressive season for Kinston at age 22 last year, although again, the peripherals (104 K, 51 BB) did not live up to the ERA (2.65), and he's failed to carry his success to Akron this season (4.99 ERA, 60 K, 47 BB, 97 IP). Although Gardner made several Top 10 Indians prospect lists over the winter, he now looks like a reach to get to the majors even as a middle reliever.
McBride, 26, is an outfielder.
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Because Jordan Brown was unavailable?
OCab WAS my bête noire.
by stuart dean on Jul 31, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Frankly, I do. I don’t like giving up both guys, but this is more than a rental. This is 2+ years of a guy who’s a top line starter. Pom and White will probably be very good to great pitchers, but the one constant people around here bring up is that until they’re in the majors, it’s a long road with many obstacles.
This isn’t bad at all. We keep Chiz and Kipnis.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 8:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
if we can acquire an ace and keep all our offensive pieces that is a win. it sucks we lose both pom and white but we now have 1-3 locked up in the rotation
You’re right, the guy pitching tonight sucked ass
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure he’s got anything officially “locked”
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You need to watch more Masterson starts.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 31, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I like it. Proven MLB starter, team friendly contract. Not going to get those for nothing. Pom and White might turn out to be as good, but will both of them? When? Jiminez’s potential is helping the team win for 2 years and maybe bringing in top prospects when his contract is up.
Len Barker Perfect Game Attendee
by PortlandVinny on Jul 30, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dig it. When an ace is available, you get him. Take the (realtively) sure thing when you can.
Ubaldo, Masterson, Carrasco, Tomlin, Jeanmar, Huff, and ZacMac is a nice young stable of SPs.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 31, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That Huff makes this conversation is quite a turnaround.
OCab WAS my bête noire.
by stuart dean on Jul 31, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Because we’ve scored 2 runs in the last 31 innings, and in baseball, if you score 0 runs, even with the greatest pitchers of all time, you can’t win
Sure, but this is for 2.5 years, basically. Not to mention, if we can hold the line and/or the Tigers don’t get hot, I like this team a ton with Choo and Sizemore.
sizemore has done nothing to inspire any level of confidence, and who knows what him or choo will do when they get back? i don’t think we can count any either of them to spark the offense the rest of the season.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Choo is a damn good player, the first 2.5 months of this season notwithstanding. Sizemore was pretty darn good when he didn’t have a hernia/abdominal issue. I know what you are saying, my point is that there is a feasible path to a solid offense, and with Ubaldo, that’s a darn good team.
even if Choo produces like he did the first part of the season (and I think having the DUI resolved will help him mentally), thats still an OPS+ of about 95 which is better than Carrerra right now (65 OPS+) or Buck or Kearns (both around 75 OPS+). Choo had an OPS+ of 104 before the DUI which is solid, I have confidence in Choo
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
But at what cost to the future? I’m going to wait until it’s official, but I’m going on record as not being pleased if we, in fact, give up White and Pom for the U.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I could not agree more – not happy about giving up both. Giving up one I would’ve been uneasy about, but giving up two potential front end of the roatation starters. NOT HAPPY.
I just want to believe.
Ugh.
I think this is what happens when you follow minor leaguers so closely. You get attached to them. Pretty much every organization has someone as good as White and Pomeranz. Mostly those guys don’t pan out. Certainly they won’t be worth as much as Jiminez over the next 2+ years. Maybe you’ll wish you had them in 2014.
by Cols714 on Jul 30, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I follow the minors, yeah – but really not that close. I do feel that we have 4 young guys I didn’t want traded. I could’ve understood losing one. But, WHAM, we lost two of them. This just eviscerated our top-shelf started pitching depth. For an organization that doesn’t have a recent history of developing that type of talent, this hurts. I was looking forward to seeing it come down the pike.
I have serious doubts about the dominance of Jiminez over the next 2+ years in the AL. Between his loss of velocity and the switching of leagues, it just worries me. I was more excited/optimistic about what White showed earlier this year with the club.
Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I am down on this deal. This frustrates me more than the fire sales from ‘08 and ’09. And yes, I am well aware of what I was feeling then vs. what I’m feeling now.
I just want to believe.
You know damn well what I want to believe in.
I just want to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I understand your optimism in White and that being disappointing, but you were more optimistic about him then about a guy who was third in Cy Young voting last year while pitching at home in the ultimate hitters park?
It’s not that I don’t believe that Jiminez is/could be really good for us – I just do question how he’s coming to us – is he the dominant pitcher from the past, or is he damaged goods. We’ve all seen players fall of in production. Need I really list examples?
I’m not upset at losing prospects – I’m upset at overpaying. Losing Pom or White. Fine. Losing both? Too much.
I just want to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I get that and, truly, only time will answer the question of White and Pom.
As far as the damaged goods scenario, I really don’t think the Indians would have done any kind of deal (especially one with 2 of their top 4 prospects) without being pretty darn sure. Also, there’s the physical to be done, too.
I can see both sides of this issue. I’m not opposed to trading one of our “top four” for Jimenez, but it hurts to lose two of them for a pitcher with a lot of question marks. And what’s worse is the fact that we lost both pitchers in our top four. I’d probably like this deal a bit better had it not included both Pom and White.
That said, its still a pretty decent deal even if I think we overpaid.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2011 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
There are almost always question marks. Sabathia was a 300 pound behemoth who had tanked completely in April following his 2007 workhorse season. There were doubts that he’d be strong all the way down the stretch. Lee had a complete collapse less than two years in the past when we dealt him and wasn’t considered durable.
by Jay on Jul 31, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So this doesn’t have to do with as much with the prospects we gave up but that you don’t have confidence in Ubaldo.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
It’s the combo – risk v. reward. For the uncertainty I feel in him, I think we overpaid. I hope I’m wrong, I hope that he’s a true front end of the rotation guy without any hiccups (injuries or difficulty switching leagues). I just cannot come away without thinking we will regret this as early as next year (at this time).
I just want to believe.
This article pretty much sums up what I’m feeling on the risk/reward aspect of getting Jiminez. I just don’t know that we got the Ace everyone thinks we got. As the article points out – why on Earth are the Rox passing up on that extra year under contract? If he was such a solid bet, why are they moving him this early? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I just want to believe.
I have serious doubts about the dominance of Jiminez over the next 2+ years in the AL.
How do you feel about getting him out of Coors?
by JulioBernazard on Jul 31, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that is the concern – the Indians may have “shortened” the window a bit, in terms of being able to contend.
The Indians likely (especially if the offense gets on track and Carrasco gets back to what he was doing in June) have solidifed themselves as a playoff contender for the next 3 years (through 2013, maybe 2014), but unless they can get another wave of strong pitching prospects ready to go by that point, there could be a bit of a dropoff.
After all, all of Carmona, Masterson, and Jimenez will either be gone or close to gone by then. I’m not as certain about Tomlin and Carrasco – I think we have control of them longer, but am not sure.
The main point is, we have essentially #3-#5 starters in the Minors right now, outside of possibly these 3 (off the top of my head): Rondon, House, Sterling.
And, Rondon is coming back from injury, and might “only” be a #3 (nothing bad with that, of course), House is struggling as much, if not more so, than Gardner was, and House is at High-A, so he’s a distance away, and Sterling just got to Low-A, and is likely 3-4 years away if everything pans out.
Of course, on the flip side, you have to question whether both White and Pomeranz will both reach their potential. In addition, as Tony Lastoria mentioned on his Twitter feed, perhaps the Indians are more concerned about White’s middle finger injury turning into a long-term issue like Adam Miller’s has become. Supposedly, the injury supposedly wasn’t the same type, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t become it at some point, or be some type of lingering issue down the road.
One other thing brought up by Lastoria – the Indians have to put everything into signing Peters and Dillon from the 2011 Draft. I would have to think that the Indians are feeling pretty comfortable signing at least one, if not both, of them to help convince them that they should go through with the Jimenez trade.
After all, they do not want to mortgage the future, and unless they can replenish the farm system with top-flight pitching prospects, they could have a “break” in the “waves” of the Minor League system after 2013 or 2014, essentially having us in a 3-year window of opportunity. Therefore, I think there’s a fairly good chance at least one of them will be signed, if not both.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
For once, it feels good to live for today. 1.5 GB.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Season’s not over yet, and I still don’t think Detroit’s running away with the division.
Plus, I’m sure the Tigers took notice (and probably the rest of the division) that we got Jimenez. Plus, the Tigers really haven’t addressed their bullpen issues, or their starter issues, to this point. That’s all the more reason why I think this race is going to come down to the final 2 months, and likely would have been the case even if we hadn’t traded for Jimenez.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Rec but two years ago, we didn’t have anyone even approaching these two.
OCab WAS my bête noire.
by stuart dean on Jul 31, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
we gave up 2 front end potential starters for 1 proven front end starter. And out of those guys with front end potential, 1 has not developed secondary pitches to be a front end guy and the other has pitched only 14 innings above Kinston.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
by bross09 on Jul 30, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Great point
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 31, 2011 12:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If Jimenez, Masterson, and Tomlin hold down the top 3 spots, we have people like
Huff, McAllister, etc. who can plug into the 4 an 5 spots.
If Tomlin can keep up his “Maddux-like” command, he’s be a passable, solid #3. Not your typical #3 based on stuff, but with well-above-average command, he’d be at least a passable #3, and probably is a better bet at this point than Carrasco until he gets himself straightened out.
At this point, Tomlin is a better bet of carrying you deeper into a ball game and keeping you in the game, along with keeping his focus. Carrasco’s stuff is certainly better, but his mental approach must be better and he still has to keep himself from getting rattled – hopefully, he’ll get back to his June form.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
you forgot about Carrasco.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Recently, I wish I could forget about CarCar.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 31, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
pronk can play first next season after getting a shoulder transplant in the winter, and ubaldo can hit in the DH’s spot. problems solved
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm…No one’s mentioned this yet (that I’ve seen). But what about the switch to the AL? Jimenez could get worse…
Was just typing this above. Are we sure he’s an ace in the AL?
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He won’t be facing pitchers, so that hurts. And I worry about his walks. But he strikes out batters. The Indians need more of that.
And he’s only lost 3 mph off his fastball since last year…
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He is working towards a career low in walks.
The HR rate has been unusually high this year, but it’s normally elite.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Its a SSS, but his Interleague splits are not great (still a bit better than he’s been overall this year). He has also faced the twins twice, the rays, the sox, the yankees etc…
I have a feeling if someone had the time to crunch the #s, the winning % in interleague play of the opposing team is higher than average.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I like it. It’s too easy to overvalue your own pitching prospects in a deal like this.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:08 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Exactly. Remember when Justin Chamberlain and Phil Hughes were going to be the next big things. But still I don’t like the trade. I liked Pomeranz.
by oxforddave on Jul 30, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s his given name. I believe during the 2007 playoffs people here were emphatic about using that rather than his colloquial name.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I like Pomeranz too.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I really like Pomeranz but am not hugely high on white.
Even so, if Ubaldo won’t see a very significant dropoff by switching leagues and get back to form now that he is out of Coors, his production will be at least what I think Pomz will be at his peak (<3.50 ERA, #1/#2)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
How many starts has Pomeranz gone longer than 5 innings? That worried me.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jul 31, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Whatever. Kershaw had this problem 24 months ago too.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
But in the Majors!
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on man. Kershaw was 21, in the major leagues, threw 170 innings, and had a K rate of 9.74 per 9.
Pomeranz is 22 and has pitched like 10 innings above High A. No comparison.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume Kershaw had this problem at some point in the minors too? I could be wrong, but I thought it seemed like a safe assumption.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Except he was already in the majors when Pomeranz was in single A.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree. I really like Pomz and think he has higher upside then white, but is far from perfect. I think I said somewhere else in this thread, we traded a pitcher who isn’t going for long outings in the minors and a guy who very well could end up being a reliever.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Many serious fans get really invested in the prospects. I get that, but I will be very happy if this happens.
Some say there is no such thing as a pitchin prospect
Len Barker Perfect Game Attendee
by PortlandVinny on Jul 30, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I read that to myself in a Sam Elliot voice and it made it seem even truer.
by painaxl on Jul 30, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Right, like someone said in the other thread: not that long ago we would have been pissed to give up Huff and Sowers. Also Miller. Rondon.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
I don’t think there was ever a time when we would’ve been upset about giving up Huff and Sowers. There were serious question marks about them from the time they were drafted.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
No. Just watching a start was enough to see that Huff and Sowers were not going to be successful long-run.
No. The huff/sowers to white/pomeranz comparisons are terrible. If you were surprised Sowers turned out poorly…
I don’t think you remember how dominant Huff and Sowers were in their respective first two full seasons in the organization. Also Miller. Rondon. Lofgren.
There were more than a few people around here calling out Sowers’ first season performance as unsustainable due to his poor peripheral numbers.
And what peripherals were those? 8.5 K/9, 1.6 BB/9, including 9.5 K/9 when he was at age appropriate high A ball.
oh, right. It was clear that Sowers couldn’t sustain his major league rookie season. I’m comparing Sowers and Huff – as they were about a year into their professional careers – to Pomeranz and White now, its hard to distinguish. jhio and joeee’s revisionist scouting/memory issues notwithstanding.
Sowers clearly was not Pomz — just a different profile entirely — but it is notable that Sowers was the #6 pick and Pomz #5.
Likewise, Huff did not come with the same prestige as White, and the main thing they have in common for their first two seasons is difficulty staying healthy.
I don’t know, Sowers was pretty close to Pomz considering their first 13 or 15 starts in A ball. Sowers walked significantly less and struck out a few less, gave up a couple more dingers. I think pretty comparable.
Huff’s stock took off about a year later, similar to White.
Right. But there was VERY high confidence that Sowers would be a solid big-league starter.
Now people want to pretend that not only does Pomeranz have better stuff that Sowers, but also that the confidence is just as high. That’s just not true.
Yeah, its the two big factors in quality of prospects: ceiling and probability of contributing. I’m not saying Pomz/White are exactly the same as Sowers/Huff were, but that the total value and how they were perceived in quality was very similar.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 31, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not in this specific little sub-sub-thread, but the larger discussion is in fact about that.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2011 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Sowers and Huff were fine prospects at one time, but you’re mixing in this up in an attempt to justify what we all instinctively know was a mistake. This lousy, sinking feeling isn’t going to go away soon.
Like yesterday’s Ubaldo, both Pomeranz and White are huge guys who conceal the ball well, throw hard, and look like they can sustain it. It’s pretty easy to tell the difference in talent between Sowers and these guys, to tell what’s wrong with Visiting Day, remember? Granted, it’s a little harder to tell them apart from David Huff, but still possible.
Speak for yourself, dude.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
What the heck am I mixing up? And I don’t really think this was a mistake at all.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 31, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought I liked this move. It was helpful to come here and have you explain my feelings to me.
Formerly fwembt
by Brad D on Aug 1, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ENTIRELY CORRECT
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Per Lastoria: if it’s Pom and White the Rockies have gotten more out of us than we got for either CC or Clifton. Nice.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2011 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Laporta,Brantley, Bryson, Donald, Carrasco, Knapp
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Marson
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Fair point. Question being how good Jimenez is? Wasn’t Lee the most dominant pitcher in baseball for the preceding 1.5 years w/ 1.5 years left on his contract when he was dealt?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee was Cy Young winner year preceeding the deal. In the deal year, he was very good, but not spectacular. 7-9, 3.14, 1.30 whip.
You and I have different definitions of spectacular.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you have me mixed up with someone else, though I have in fact used that word before.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
’sall good.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t call him Don’t Call Me Joey.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Aug 1, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lee was also phenomenally un-durable and inconsistent season-to-season. Major injury issues in 2004 and 2007. Ubaldo hasn’t missed a start in seven years.
heard he was banged up a bit this year, but that has just made him a bit less effective but he has been in the rotation (which is important).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
we are also looking at this in hindsight and at the time of the trade, Laporta may have been the most valued prospect in all the deals. Brantley was also fairly highly regarded, though not as much as white.
They also got CC for only a year whereas we get a younger pitcher for 2.5 years.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Lee was also 30 when traded. We basically are on the reverse end of the CC deal except we got him for longer. The only difference is that Ubaldo didn’t win the Cy young (he was close, and like CC was, is 27 and having a down year).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
The only “down” in his year in his actual ERA. His FIP looks great, his K’s are there, and his walks, while higher than you like to see, are down for him.
Even so, Ubaldo has suffered from getting killed in Coors so that aspect (being better than they seem) is a bit of a wash.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
If this is the deal, I think it’s a good one. Jimenez is an ace. It does mean the Indians are, as of next year, entering win now mode. They have Choo, Asdrubal and now Jimenez til the end of 2013. Expect them to try to deal for an impact outfield bat in the off-season.
by thestreaksofbenfrancisco on Jul 30, 2011 8:09 PM EDT reply actions
The only way I like this deal is if we are fully prepared and committed to go after hitting hard in the offseason.
this
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, and I’m not suggesting we will, but I do have an eerie “all bets are off” feeling since seeing the Jimenez deal go down.
We didn’t spend money in the Jimenez deal — in fact, in a sense we saved money, as it probably means we don’t look for a Byrd-type signing in the offseason.
This club has hard limits. It is conceivable we could go after a hitter the way we went after Jimenez, but we aren’t going to spend $80 million on a free agent. Never = never in this respect.
But I wouldn’t think it would cost that much to find improvements for 1B and perhaps LF on the free agent market.
From last offseason:
Lance Berkman RF 1 year $8 million with St. Louis. 178 OPS+
Carlos Pena 1B 1 year $10 million with Chicago Cubs 111 OPS+
Fred Lewis LF 1 year $900,000 with Cincinnati 103 OPS+
Alright so that’s about it, but I also noticed that the rest of the decent deals involved players with decent track records that have just fallen face first this season as far as offense goes…
I don’t know the free agent class for next season, but I know one player that the would fit into a similar contract as the three named above, and that is Grady Sizemore and his team option. That move would be spending on offense that the team does not have to do if it doesn’t want to.
Do you not think they will look to improve on LaPorta?
Still digesting the fact that White and Pomeranz may be gone.
But here’s what the Indians could have in their rotation next season
Masterson
Jimenez
Carrasco
Carmona
Tomlin
with Barnes, McAllister, Gomez, Huff, and Talbot as the second tier of starters.
That’s a potentially very good rotation, with some major-league ready depth in the minors.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2011 8:12 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Except for Carmona and Tomlin
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
In the #4 and #5 spots? Detroit’s #4 and #5 spots aren’t even close to Carmona and Tomlin (a combination of Furbush/Coke/Downy or something like that and Penny, who probably won’t be back next year).
I think 2/3 of the league would take Carmona and Tomlin as their #4 and #5 starters. While Carmona has been erratic, Tomlin has been pretty consistent for the most part – nothing to complain about there in my opinion.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
scribble scribble scribble {CANCEL}
OCab WAS my bête noire.
by stuart dean on Jul 31, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is the right take. Also, worth remembering that Hector Rondon and Alex Perez will start pitching again by the Fall.
I asked this earlier, but what is going on with Rondon’s recovery? I was unable to find anything on internets.
by rockemsockem on Jul 31, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
His surgery was later in ‘10 than Perez’.
OCab WAS my bête noire.
by stuart dean on Jul 31, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Here comes Ubaldo. So deal not official
Ubaldo warming up for his start tonight…
This may sound silly, but are we sure Ubaldo is going to be more valuable than White over even just the next two seasons?
I’d say no, unless they really think this gets us over the hump for this year. From everything I’ve heard from the FO, though, they don’t think we can win the WS this year with or without Ubaldo.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure? No. But the chances are in our favor. Ubaldo is a front of the rotation guy now. White was trying to come back as a reliever.
His comeback as a reliever was no indictment of his quality. It was an innings management tactic.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Innings management because of his youth and injury risk. These things are exactly the reason Ubaldo is the safer bet.
My original question was more for next year, but your point is taken.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
(not to mention I think Ubaldo is significantly more talented than White, remember this was a guy that many thought was destined for a career in the bullpen as recently as this spring.)
Could be that the Tribe’s management agrees w/ the bullpen career point, which would make this deal more sensible to me.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Not an innings management tactic. It’s a matter of how late in the season it is. It would take him too long to get his innings built up to come back as a starter, so they were going to move him to the bullpen to get the most out of him the remainder of the year.
Nothing to do with youth and injury risk.
Yes…but they weren’t putting him in the bullpen because they were concerned about him getting injured again this year, which was your point.
No, my point was that injury and inning concerns make it less likely that he will contribute to a Jimenez-type-level over the next 2.5 years.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m OK with this trade. This is the going price. With that said, I still can’t understand how the tribe got so little for Lee 2 years ago.
The market for Lee was different. Remember, people weren’t sure at the time whether what he did in 08 was sustainable.
That said, I didn’t like the Lee trade at the time, and I still haven’t warmed to it.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
great point. Not only is Ubaldo locked up longer, but he is locked up at incredibly affordable dollar levels.
He’s owed about $12 million — which isn’t even all guaranteed.
There is a decent chance he contributes 12 WAR over that span. This contract is as good as the 2005 contracts we did with Grady, Victor, Jhonny and Travis.
Those contracts worked out great for us — what are you talking about? The contract Hafner has now was signed in 2008, not 2005. We got some spectacular years from Grady, Victor, and Hafner with those contracts (and Peralta wasn’t bad).
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Is that fun if you’re not a classical music guy?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup. I know nothing about classical music but it’s a good time. They always have a guest performer and tonight was the OSU Marching Band, which of course was really cool. It was interesting hearing a symphony orchestra perform along with a college band. And conductor of the Columbus Symphony speaks to the audience between songs and is quite funny. He looks exactly like I expect a conductor to look like.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Deal is done according to Hardballtalk. . .
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:21 PM EDT reply actions
Citing a source that says it’s not official yet…
I’m not saying it’s not done (I’m sure it basically is), but it’s still not official
Yeah, I noticed that. . . Renck is tweeting that it’s not official minutes after HBT quotes him in an article saying it’s a done deal.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
if the deal is done, we better be getting him able to start tomorrow. if we have to wait until Thursday he’s worth even less.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2011 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Interesting…NY Post says that the Yankees asked that a trade for Jimenez include a physical, and the Rox said no.
on MLB network last night, Mitch Williams speculated that there may be a physical issue w/ Jimenez as his fastball isn’t nearing the speed he regularly achieved last year
perhaps that’s why the Rockies are willing to deal an “ace” w/ such a friendly contract?
If the Indians ask for a physical and the Rox say no, there better not be a deal. Just sayin’.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine any team would want to have its doctors look at any potential investment.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Bastian says we are also still in for Ludwick. When is the last time the Indians were such active buyers at the deadline?
Did Hart do many deadline deals?
Ken Hill in ’95. The big three-pitcher deal that brought us Wickman in 2000 … what else?
our big haul that year was kenny loft on
by mixmasterasia on Jul 30, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Kenny Lofton.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
just turned on the Padres-Rockies game on TV
surprised to find out that Dick Enberg does the Padres play-by-play
Obviously this is a high price, but I love this deal. The fact of the matter is that Jimenez is an ace caliber pitcher, which is very difficult to acquire at any time. Add in that he is in his physical prime and that extraordinary club friendly contract, and this is simply stupendous and breathtaking. If this pans out, I think that it’s a very good day to be an Indians fan.
I want to agree with you, but there is this:
@keithlaw
keithlaw
“We want 2 significant prospects for our pitcher who has suddenly lost 3 mph off his fastball, and you can’t do a physical.” “It’s a deal!”
and this:
@joe_sheehan
Joe Sheehan
Outside of 14 starts at the beginning of ‘10, Jimenez hasn’t been a #1, but really a #2. 4.26 ERA last 39 starts. #indians #rockies #ruhroh
The dip is fine, but not the injury and lost MPH.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 8:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I would think that if the Indians have any doubt about Jimenez’s health, they’d nixed the deal – they only complete it if they are totally confident he is healthy and will remain that way (as far as they can tell – there are no guarantees, of course).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Always buy on the dips! (In an uptrend, anyway).
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s striking more guys out than he did earlier in his career, and his fielding-independent numbers have actually gotten better. Cherry picking much? Especially Sheehan, going with the ERA. . . blech
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Jimenez thrown 11 balls in 20 pitches… Hasn’t topped 93 mph… Looks more like spring training outing
Spring training, or injury?
Bummed about losing Pom, but have to give something to get something. Sure Ubaldo could flame out, but there is no guarantee Pom makes it all the way either (injuries, etc.)
We have complained for years about not using our assets. Looks like the FO is finally going the other way on this. Even if it he isnt an ace, I think the deal still favors us due the club friendly contract.
If we didn’t make any trades like this, people would be bitching, too.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
can someone explain to me why we’re so excited about ludwick?
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Padres are expected to throw in Dick Enberg with any Ludwick trade.
Is this the whale section?
by sarcasmdave on Jul 30, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ludwick may not be great … but have you seen how anemic our offense is? He at least has hit in th past. I doubt he will cost a ton. Heck maybe Valbuena or Crowe get freedom in tht deal.
i believe that michaels and dellucci were both signed because they’d hit in the past and didn’t cost a ton.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
still not buying that ludwick will be an improvement.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
can anyone explain the deal with pomeranz having to be a PTBN because he signed in august? what is this rule?
not a bullpen guy, but AA
Joe Gardner: 4.97 ERA, 19 starts, 97.1 IP, 108 H, 47 BB, 60 K …. 23 years old
Not a big loss.
he was having trouble adjusting to AA. A nice buy low on a prospect for them. I thought he could be a quick rising low ceiling type of SP prospect but he hit a wall.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’ve seen a bit of tape on it and its phenomenal but it seems like they may have figured it out at that level (for right now)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
PLEASE BE UNDERWOOD.
please.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
HIRE SHAPIRO.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2011 9:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
ZackMeisel Zack Meisel
by MLBastian
Ubaldo Jimenez throws 45 pitches (21 strikes), walks four, allows four runs in first inning. Not exactly showcasing.
Erm. I can chalk this up to maybe not being very focused though and having your mind be elsewhere.
my god we got fleeced
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Is it wring I don’t know anything about Gardner?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 15 prospect this year. Pitcher. 3rd round pick in 2009. Extreme sinkerballer. Struggling this year.
KG had him 7th in the organization coming into the year.
by rockemsockem on Jul 30, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
he was top 15 I think because they thought he would be a high riser and a high floor, but a low ceiling. His floor may be lowering because of the struggles (as is his quickness through the organization).
Even if he picks up in 2012 where he left off, he’ll probably not make AAA until he’s 25.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
How high were people on Joe Gardner? I don’t know a bunch about him. His stats this year don’t look outstanding, but it is his first year at AA.
Isley23 Ryan
by LetsGoTribe
Straight from Alex White: Joe Gardner, Matt McBride, Alex White, Drew Pomeranz for Ubaldo
So now they have to wait 4 days to pitch Ubaldo because the Rockies needed to run him out there? I would have called it off for that crap.
I doubt he has to wait four days to pitch for the Indians. Pitchers throw between starts anyways. He can probably start in 2 or 3 days.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
No idea. Apparently it’s a friend of Alex White though. He was the first person to say that Gardner was player #4 (and said it was straight from White)
White was hoping to pitch in a pennant race next month, possibly in October as well. That ain’t happening now, of course he’s unhappy.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think he’s right, though. We’re getting fleeced. I do not like this deal one bit.
I just want to believe.
No – take chances. I’d be OK with a boatload of prospects – just not two of our top 4 prospects. For a pitcher with who’s lost velocity this year. And has to transition to the AL. And after on of those two prospects showed flashes of great things to come after flying through the minors.
Make deals – take chances. But do it when 1) the team is really on the cusp of contention and not backsliding (and doesn’t have multiple different areas of weakness); and 2) do it when you’re not completely selling out your future.
The more I think about it, the more I detest this trade.
I just want to believe.
How are we completely selling out our future? We’d be totally ecstatic if one of White or Pom became Ubaldo Jimenez.
but we’d have 2 of them, for a ton more years
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Yeah, we’d have two guys who we’d be thrilled with if they became the guy that we got. So we just sped up time. 1.21 gigawatts style!
READ THIS FUTURESHAPIRO!
by painaxl on Jul 30, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The odds of any two pitching prospects both reaching their full potential has to be almost 0.
by Voltaire on Jul 31, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The likelihood of one of them becoming Ubaldo is pretty low. The likelihood of BOTH of them becoming Ubaldo has to be extraordinarily small.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
runs
But,but, we still can’t score any runs. Thursday night, no hits.. Triple A team got one hit. Friday, got shutout. Triple A team got shut out. Double A team got shut out. High A team got shut out. Tonight we are getting shut out with four hits in eightth inning. Maybe its not entirely the players. Tonight, a double and single , first and third. NO outs. LaPorta tries to score on a “short fly ball to left field”.Two out, runner on first. Inning over. And we go out and trade for a pitcher.Let’t go out and give up the rest of our farm system for Zimmerman.
My eyes.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 9:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank you so much for providing us the means to hide this post. How thoughtful.
by ahowie on Jul 30, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think this is way too much to give up. One of White and Pomeranz, sure, but both? I don’t know.
Jimenez is a very good pitcher, but no really an ace imo and while his numbers are still pretty damn nice, his velocity is way down and he’s 27-years old. That said, he does have a very team friendly contract.
I’m just not really sure how to feel about this. Our pitching in the minors is a strength so it makes sense to deal from that, but I don’t know if you need to go for mlb pitching instead of offense. I guess time will tell.
We certainly can’t say the FO doesn’t have the balls to make a blockbuster deal (while we’re the ones buying in this case)
This crossed my mind. I think Ubaldo has a lot more established history than Fausto circa 08
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, he’s definitely a better pitcher, no question. But, let’s see how we like this deal 3 years from now. I hope it works, that’s for sure, but I hate trading the two best pitching prospects in the system.
by pdxtribefan on Jul 30, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
so do we shut down Pomeranz for 2 weeks?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Awesome!!!
I can’t believe we are going to sit hear and complain about giving up two pitching prospects. One of whom is injured right now and the other is only in AA.
We get Jiminez for 2 more years after this for cheap. Great job Tribe!
Finally we are going for it.
by Cols714 on Jul 30, 2011 10:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, I think this is close to how I feel. I’ve read the acronym TINSTAAPP so many times on this site. This move is made with that in mind.
We’re going for it when the rest of the team is still young and not ready – there is no core in place to build around. We are on the cusp of developing a team that could contend for years – one that would improve for years. But a big part of that building contention was top of the line, front end starters developing – in the persons of White and Pom.
We’re selling ourselves short to go for it when the rest of the team is just not there – our offense isn’t and we don’t have the starting pitching depth to go for it. This is foolish and short-sighted. We will regret this trade for YEARS.
I just want to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, we could make the playoffs. But the chances of winning the WS are much lower without a solid core.
Wrong. Make the playoffs, an anyone can win.
But guess what it takes in short series?
PITCHING.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
the chances of winning the WS are much lower without a great front end of the rotation too.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
by bross09 on Jul 31, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
TWO MORE YEARS. We have TWO MORE YEARS of Ubaldo Jimenez. He has more Cy-Young votes than Pomeranz and White combined!
Look, I understand the frustration at giving up the two best pitching prospects we have, but saying that “a big part of building contention was top of the line front end starters” seems silly. We just got a top of the line, front end starter. Seriously. Not one that needs to be developed. He is one.
Three more years. I can’t see a universe where Ubaldo doesn’t pick up the 2014 option.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I believe it can be voided by Ubaldo if traded. He won’t void it.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Why not? He can be an FA one year earlier, and make more $$$ if he pitches well and stays relatively healthy.
via Cots
2014 option increases to:
$9M with 2013 Cy Young or 450 IP in 2012-13
$8.5M with 2nd or 3rd place in 2013 Cy Young vote
if traded, Jimenez may void 2014
Ubaldo doesn’t care about being rich. He lives with his Mom in a loft across from Coors Field and negotiated his own contract.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I appreciate what you’re saying, but understand that we’re kind of jaded about this type of thing around here and a “we’ll believe that when we see it” approach is the best you’re going to get from us.
I completely get that.
I would also put down a substantial amount of money that Ubaldo picks up the option in 2014 without hesitation.
The hardest part about this trade is that Ubaldo was willing to sign another incredibly club friendly extension after this season. Unfortunately all of our top pitching has regressed and we need multiple arms.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I honestly cannot think of a better place for him to go. He’s going to love it there
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah, and you were going to have to rip the Indians jersey off of Thome’s back.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
by Joel D on Jul 30, 2011 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
if he doesn’t care THAT much about $, maybe the Indians can rework his contract and sign him through 2015 or 2016?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He negotiated his own contract? That’s kind of cool.
But most players would opt for free agency if they have the value that will land them big $$$, not “just one more option year.”
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
We have loft apartments for him and his Mom in Cleveland. We’ve got uniforms and everything!
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 31, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
If you turn out to be right, we’ll be trading Ubaldo a year from now. Or two years from now. We have that right.
That would land a return that will mature a little farther into the future than the White/Pom/Gardner? crop would, but in that sense that is very good because if we do need to trade Ubaldo, it means that we will be trading others too and probably the white/pom window would turn out to be too early to actually compete.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope for peace of mind that Antonetti gave Jack Z. a last ringy dingy on Felix. Probably would have to add a hitter, but still.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 30, 2011 10:12 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t think Jack Z has any intention on trading King Felix. They need SOMETHING to sell the fans on next year.
Can’t sell another 100 loss team, Felix or not. At this point Jack is probably more worried about Jack, and not the fans. If he sells Felix for something he can’t plug in immediately, his overlords won’t/can’t wait for 2-3 years. Still, maybe we could have caught him in a moment of sanity.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 30, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Felix is set to make $18M per year under his extension. A deal for Felix in exchange for these four players was not of the same value to the Indians, even if Felix is a better pitcher.
Felix is higher value. Let’s say we suck next year, or even the year after, we could sell off Felix for an extraordinary package. He’s a proven AL stud. We could probably replicate or come close to White/Pomeranz value.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 30, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Jimenez’s commercial is better, too.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Yankees and Red Sox to start. You only need one. And the Yankees rotation could be in tatters by then if they can’t develop/sign someone. Not saying we couldn’t flip Ubaldo too, but at a lower wattage. Who know who also could come out of the woodwork. Who’d of thought we’d be buyers, or the Pirates. There is almost always someone.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 31, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
False. It’s not the same market. We came out of the woodwork, though, because we can afford the guy. At $18M annually, we’re not in the discussion.
You’re right, it will be a different market, but the forces will be the same. Lots of teams can reach for one guy, even Felix, if they need him and have the goods. Every year it’s somebody. Three years ago it was the Brewers, two years ago the Phillies, always the Red Sox and Yankees. This year us and the Pirates. As for the $18 million, we would have signed CC for $18 million a year, and Felix is better than CC, and younger.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 31, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, for a team that has been desperate for minor league arms for the better part of a decade, it’s so unsettling to trade three of them away in one fell swoop.
::crosses fingers::
Yeah and for a team that’s desperate for major league arms for the last two years, it’s pretty fun to actually get one.
by Cols714 on Jul 30, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
by LetsGoTribe
Ubaldo “i didn’t have my mind on baseball tonight. It was hard”
Someone else who hates ESPN. Maybe he’ll fit in here after all.
by barsham on Jul 30, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 16 recs
So does this trade mean that MLB Network will stop airing that “Ubaldo” license plate nametag commercial?
Ha, I don’t get MLB Network. I was kind of wondering what was with all the license plate jokes on Twitter.
by rockemsockem on Jul 30, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope not. I love that commercial.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Kevin_Goldstein Source: Ubaldo deal 100% not done, teams still talking, start threw wrench into things.
7 minutes ago
NOT 100% DONE OR 100% NOT DONE?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
mlb.com says its done on the front page. i dont know what this means.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Jul 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
unless starting ubaldo was an intentional middle finger to antonetti, i can’t imagine the indians stall the trade on account of that. slightly unprofessional from the rockies, sure, but if they’re committing to the trade, just do it.
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Jul 30, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
sniff
treat him nicely, guys
/blows nose
he really likes tuna fish sandwiches on rainy days
/single shed tear
he likes to be scratched behind his left ear when he walks a guy
/lip quivers
JUST LOVE HIM LIKE WE LOVED HIM
/full waterworks
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT reply actions 14 recs
We know how you feel, man.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
by Matt Y. on Jul 30, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is how you make a cameo on another blog. Godspeed.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
by USSChoo on Jul 30, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rockies fan here
You guys are going to love Ubaldo. Absolutely love the kid. He’s the hardest working athlete on the team, and a genuinely likeable kid.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Jul 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
As an Indians fan…Don’t get me wrong. I look forward to seeing Ubaldo Jimenez. I just feel like we got fleeced in this deal. Especially with the velocity drop this year, there’s a chance he’s hurt.
Why?
We are giving up two decently regarded pitchers. Certainly not the best pitchers in the minors or anything. Past minor leaguers we didn’t want to give up include Adam Miller, Jaret Wright, David Huff, Jeremy Sowers, Guthrie, etc.
Most of these guys are never going to do anything at all. 2.25 years of Ubaldo is worth it.
That’s the risk we’re taking. Most Rockies fans think we didn’t get enough for Ubaldo.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The velocity drop was mainly in April and May from the finger injury. He also didn’t go through his regular winter training regimen, and has admitted that was a mistake.
We had the same fears, but since May 12, he has been pretty much lights out.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Oh, so we are exchanging finger injuries, then.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong, we like likeable. But we Tribe fans are way past the huggy huggy stage. We want someone who puts out.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 30, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I grew up in Cleveland going to Indians games. They’re my AL team, and I completely understand.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
flag.
Your “AL team”?
Are you sure you “grew up” in Cleveland? By my math, that would make you an Indians fan. First and foremost.
My dad lived in Cleveland and I’d visit him during the summer.
The Rockies came into existence the year I moved to Colorado.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
snif thanks
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
Learn about Batting Metrics
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 30, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, the Indians organization and team needs to give him a HUGE welcome when he gets to Cleveland. Make him feel loved.
Please do. I hope he tears up the AL in the playoffs this year for you guys.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
EricBrown2013 Eric Brown
by LetsGoTribe
Ubaldo Jiminez traded for 4 no-names from the Indians? #worsttradeever
Hahahaha.
That actually hurts me. I’m sitting here, fumbling over in my brain why Alex White had to go too.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
laugh at them for me, too.
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
by Andrew Martin on Jul 30, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love for them to make the postseason. I wonder where their GM came from …
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
if sending him out there tonight got us leverage for the physical, i’m glad they sent him out there.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Maybe WE insisted on it
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
You can ask but it is not required
Len Barker Perfect Game Attendee
by PortlandVinny on Jul 30, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
this suggests otherwise
“Post has learned that Yankees asked Rockies 4 days ago to do physical on Jimenez if deal agreed to, Col refused, so Yanks bowed out.”
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Don’t believe a single thing that Joel Sherman tweeted during this whole process. It’s all been basically proven wrong by this point.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
This
Basic rule here is don’t believe anything Keith Law says about the Rockies and don’t believe anything Jeol Sherman says period. That guy if full of more crap than every cesspool in America combined.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 31, 2011 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems to me that’s usually the case that trades are ‘pending physicals.’
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The windows are just as flawed, though. This year is not part of “our window”, however we’re 1.5 games out of first. 2008 was part of our window and we were in the tank by the deadline.
Sometimes, you have to break a window and hope the neighbors don’t catch you with brick dust on your hands.
by painaxl on Jul 30, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s a great line
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody has a window in 2015 that is worth crap. We can draft someone next year that will be a year ahead of where White is now.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2011 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It depends on if Ubaldo picks up the talked about option. If he does, we have the same window but it starts a year earlier. I would love a WS asap, so I see no problem.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Based on the state of our position players/prospects, the window may never have lasted that long in the first place, and that could very well factor into this decision.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the Indians will never draft or trade for a player again.
by C.b.I on Jul 30, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
For a lot of years there it was like they weren’t drafting players.
by rog on Jul 30, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
You guys are nuts. Half of the current “best pitching prospects in baseball” won’t even still have a career by 2015.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
F’n THIS
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t be so melodramatic. Some of those guys will be middle relievers.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
It’s pretty nuts to be mad about this. A good pitcher for 2 prospects, one of whom just got to AA, is a great deal. Pom and White aren’t even projected to be superstars, just # 3 starter types maybe #2.
There is nothing not to like about this. Remember, every fan base overrates its own prospects.
I agree with what you said about White, but the stuff Pomeranz shows screams #1 potential to me. Plus fastball, plus curve. But, he has his detractors too.
I’m fully on-board with this trade. It’s nice for once in my lifetime to have the Indians land a highly sought after pitcher. We always deal with the dregs.
CaminoTribe Nick Camino
Numerous reports saying #Indians have traded Orlando Cabrera to the #Giants.
who’s going to be our designated pinch runner now?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
We’re playing BASEBALL, not EIGHT-GAME, EIGHT-GAME is down the street.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DKnobler DKnobler
by LetsGoTribe
Giants will get Orlando Cabrera from Indians, source says. #tradedeadline
TIM LINCECUM WAS SCRATCHED FROM HIS START TODAY
by tr1betime on Jul 30, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Ha, rec.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
YES. Bye bye
Len Barker Perfect Game Attendee
by PortlandVinny on Jul 30, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
As part of the fanbase, I don’t care about that. I know we aren’t supposed to be contending right now, and I’d much rather have waited this season out, figured out if Pom and/or White could have been part of our true push next year, and on that basis decide what to do.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I have and will continue to believe that our FO doesn’t make decisions based solely on pleasing the clecom fans.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t mean we have to agree with every decision they make.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 30, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand “supposed to be contending”. We are contending. And it’s not like we mortgaged the future. Jiminez is signed through 2013. Cheap.
That’s pretty sweet.
Shapiro seemed to be all about planning for windows that didn’t materialize. Antonetti is jumping through the screen door.
by rog on Jul 30, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Isn’t this how Sizemore strained himself?
Our best players wear suits.
by mauichuck on Jul 31, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We ARE contending right now. The front office and the manager thoguht we were. F the fanbase is right. It just so happens to be the prospect-happy wing of the fanbase that we are F-ing this time.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one who feels we could have done better if we were willing to trade Pom and White? No specific names in mind, but just thinking back to the CC and Cliff trades..is Ubaldo a CC or a Cliff Lee?
We were discussing this a lot over at Pinstripe Alley when there were rumors about the Yankees looking at him. Comparative pitchers according to most of the advanced pitching stats are Wandy Rodriguez, Hiroki Kuroda, and CJ Wilson. In essence, he’s a really good #2 starter, but not on the level of an ace. He’s not as good as his ERA would have had you think last year, but also better than it would this year. I would say his luck-neutral ERA would be around 3.40.
I heard that the prospects you gave up were something like #13 and #42 on BA’s prospect list. Honestly, I think that was a little bit too much, but that’s what you have to do to win now sometimes. I’m really glad the Yankees didn’t trade Montero for him, I’ll say that.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
Oh shut your mouth, you’re just pissed you will get UBALDO’D in the playoffs this year.
Get ready for the midges bitch!!
Fuck the Yankees!
Seriously though, why couldn’t you have saved a divine plague for the Red Sox series? I would rather see the Indians win every WS for the rest of time than see the Red Sox win another one ever.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
you also forget that Wa-Rod was 26 as a rookie, CJ Wilson didn’t become a starter until 29 and Kuroda was about 33 when he came over. Ubaldo right now is 27 and while he is a #2 at their level, he also has the most potential to get better and become a #1 (Wa-Rod, the youngest of the group, didn’t reach this level until 29).
I am not sure white is a starter, but he could be a surefire reliever. Problem is that the Indians have a ton of relief prospects and have a good bullpen (plus, they have a nice glut of starting prospects). What they don’t have is a proven front end of the rotation starter.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
“I’m really glad the Yankees didn’t trade Montero for him”
Why? Because you will need a replacement DH if Cano, Texeira, or Granderson magically regress over night, and you think that Freddy Garcia can win a Cy Young?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You have one of the best hitting teams in baseball, a team that can afford to buy ANY slugging free agent that it wants, in case it mysteriously needs an offensive upgrade this offseason, and your team is thin on pitching, and yet you want to hang on for dear life to a guy who has no position.
It is high time that Yankee fans (and Michael Kay, the leader of their cult), admit that Jesus Montero has very little trade value. There might be 1 or 2 GM’s out there that you could fleece, but most major league GM’s are not stupid. A player without a position doesn’t get you very far in a trade.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Better? – do you mean if we had traded Pom and White now or at any point?
Jimenez was the best name out there right now – certainly better than Kuroda, Maquis, and Harang (not even close; Kuroda was the next closest, and that was still a bit of a stretch).
Look at what Boston had to give up for Adrian Gonzalez, never mind the fact that he had to be signed to a long-term extension (which Boston was able to do, of course). I know they gave up Kelly, one of their top starters, and I’m pretty sure there was at least 1-2 of their noted prospects in that deal, and Gonzalez was one of the more noted hitters in baseball, and an impending free agent much sooner than Jimenez is.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I don’t care if we got Patricia Neal, it’s a good deal.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
doesn’t look good
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=neal—001tho
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
For our number 5 hitter? For shame.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His big power came in the California League in 2009, the most offense-friendly league in the minors. My grandma would hit 15 homeruns in the Cali League.
In the first half, maybe.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t be too hasty – certainly the AA and AAA numbers don’t look too impressive, but he was 22 and 23 respectively (not sure why the Giants promoted him to AAA based on his AA numbers – probably would have kept him at AA), but regardless, he’s only 23-YO, for a guy who’s not that good offensively or defensively – I say, at least a fair trade, with some potential to be better.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
You guys robbed them blind. The Giants have really emptied their system the past two years, and this was one of the few remaining quality position prospects left.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Literal cash, like a jar full of change.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
by Joel D on Jul 30, 2011 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
A couple of singles so shredded they wouldn’t work in a vending machine.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A warehouse full of Rutherford B. Hayes dollar coins.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 31, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
For Orlando Cabrera? Looks great!
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 11:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Be good to our boy. He’ll be missed. Wished he’d had a chance here but not with this crowded craptastic outfield. Good luck Tribe.
Bruce Bochy: Leave him alone, he's the Manager Man and his BORK is much worse than his bite.
by zodiac_chiller on Jul 30, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
BP had him as the #7 SF prospect coming into the year. They called him a “pure” hitter but a bad outfielder.
Neal’s walk rate all but disappeared this year. But that’s ok, because Orlando Cabrera lost his in 2008.
by xrickx on Jul 30, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Again, I question why the Giants promoted him to AAA so quickly – yes, he hit .291, but his OPS fell to .799 (although that’s not too far from his Low-A OPS of .803; the California/High-A OPS of 1.010 is almost certainly an outlier, as the Cal League boosts virtually everyone’s OPS).
Still, I feel he’s been a bit rushed, especially based on his age – he should have more time in our system to hopefully develop. I’m guessing, he’ll probably repeat AAA in 2012, at least to start the year.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Sounds like a great deal. The fact that we’re debating whether or not he’s an actual prospect is much more than I expected when I first saw they shipped Cabrera out.
Trading Cabrera for Ludwick would be something.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t think Neal-for-Ludwick would be straight up. Indians might be reluctant now to give up multiple minor-leaguers, no matter how valuable.
Awesome!
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 11:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Per #suckitLaw
The Giant, tired of playing a statue (Tejada) or an automatic out (Crawford) at short, acquire Orlando Cabrera, who is both
by jayme on Jul 30, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
so Boston’s getting Rich Harden?
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Jay has a soft spot for Yankee hate.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2011 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So now that Kipnis and Chiz have graduated, who is our top prospect now? Chen? Hagadone?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:12 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t care until December at the earliest.
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Lindor.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2011 11:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Could be any of the ones mentioned:
Chen
Hagadone (although, probably not, as he’s now only a reliever – otherwise, you’d have to include Putnam, Judy, and Lee on that list, and of those four, Lee would be my #1, followed by either Judy or Putnam behind Lee, then the other, then Hagadone, so I doubt Hagadone is #1)
Lindor (presuming he signs)
Washington (not as convinced – he has the tools, but has struggled more at Low-A than most would have thought, so I doubt Washington would be #1 either)
Others may include:
Myles (at Mahoning Valley)
Wolters (at MV)
Peters (presuming he signs)
Dillon (presuming he signs)
Sterling (probably a long shot to be #1, but he reportedly has great potential, and is at Low-A at age 19)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The Indians are the second youngest team in the AL and third-youngest in all of baseball. And they just dealt Orlando Cabrera, and Chad Durbin won’t survive much longer.
Yes, they need to draft well and build their minor league system, but are covered at most of their MLB positions with guys who will get their chance through 2011 and beyond.
Their rotation through 2013 looks outstanding. I’m pro-Carrasco.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Keith Law and his analysis. However, he’s a minor league scout. Of course he’s going to overvalue those guys. He was bitching about the Giants trading away an A-ball pitcher (who is a much better prospect than Pom or white, BTW) for Beltran.
how is that? Both BP and BA had Pomeranz ranked higher than Wheeler in their most recent prospect lists. Not saying Wheeler is a bad prospect at all, but I wouldn’t call him much better than either of Pom or White (especially Pomeranz).
OK if that’s true. I just heard Law the other day on the Baseball Today Podcast raving about Wheeler. It’s still true though that he’s pretty far away and the Giants are trying to win right now. And they got Beltran who is pretty damn good.
Dude, Law is about as fickle as they come in regards to analysis. Hasn’t he been saying all along that White and Pom were more likely bullpen arms? As for the Beltran deal, yeah they overpaid for what could be a rental (it’s Sabean, it realistically could re-sign Beltran to whatever ridiculous contract he wants) but with their pitching depth they could afford too.
by The Grimace on Jul 31, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
He bitched because they gave up a prospect who is of the same caliber, if not better, than Pomeranz, for a guy who’ll play for the Giants for 2 months.
A team that is in total win now mode. It’s pretty dumb to bitch about losing a pitching prospect that far away for a player as good as Beltran is when the team is trying to win the WS this year.
exactly
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Has to be said: that’s probably not a good thing, right?
by jakesinger777 on Jul 31, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
he doesn’t like it because he thinks the Indians suck (under .500 since the hot start) and they need a hitter…at least it seems like that was it.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
and they need a hitter
Which was NOT supposed to be the problem. So much for experts!
by 9James on Jul 31, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who is getting taken out of the rotation? I mean I know Huff has only pitched 2 games, but its been good…. but he will be probably the odd man out?
Does Carrasco have any options left?
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Jul 31, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Kearns is still on the roster.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2011 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Our outfield currently can’t hit for shit? Yes Ludwick kind of sucks as well, but he might be better than what we are running out there.
Somewhere near San Francisco, someone just said the same thing about Orlando Cabrera.
by 9James on Jul 30, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Legit LOL.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Kudos to whoever is operating the twitter ticker on the sidebar. Some great stuff from Yankees fans.
Andrew’s been quiet tonight, so I assume it’s Jay.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He was getting some pretty nasty tweets by a-hole fans after that DP in the 9th a few days ago. Can’t say that I blame him.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that does suck
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I just can’t imagine if Choo and Sizemore were healthy. When Kipnis and Chiz get use to everything and maybe Laporta is the guy he is suppose to be, this lineup can be very scary as well with a strong pitching staff, I’m excited.
And if Smith changes his number then does he also change his twitter handle?
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
One hell of a watch he’s about to get.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would Jimenez care about what number he wears?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear a lot more stars (comedians, television/movie) complaining about idiots on twitter. Seems like the ‘youtube’ crowd has moved in.
its good from both perspectives. Davis was injured a lot and not living up to his potential and Hunter has gotten lost in the depth chart. They could use a dominant set-up guy.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I once heckled him at a AA game with “You’re not a real prospect!”
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s overly reductive to gaze at Ubaldo’s splits, but damn, those road numbers this year sure are pretty.
After reading this entire thread, my quick takeaways:
1) Yeah, I’m sure he’s injured and ready for surgery. Antonetti probably hasn’t even thought about that.
2) Every time I want to get sentimental about losing Pom, I’ll think about all the ostensible uber-prospects that Jay has mentioned.
3) I’m stunned that so many people are apoplectic about the supposed 2014 and 2015 window. Uh, this is not a two-month guy. A lot can happen year-to-year, but for now, we’re trying to establish a contender in a very weak division for the next two and a half seasons. That’s not a short burst. That’s the kind of time frame that gives us real hope for winning the whole damn thing.
The whole damn thing, people.
by tabler84 on Jul 30, 2011 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 12 recs
Rec. It’s an expensive acquisition, but it may well be a great one.
I don’t know if it’s the right move at this point, but it sure has me excited.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
None of us know. But it gives us the very real potential of having a powerhouse 1-2 pitching punch for the next two and a half seasons, and we’re in a division that looks very vulnerable with no signs of that changing.
This move shifts the priority to the offense, clearly. There will be plenty of talk about Ludwick tomorrow, but I’m very interested to see how the organization handles the process of acquiring more firepower for 2012 and beyond. Of course, part of that acquisition is getting a “normal” Choo back, if that’s a reasonable expectation, and finding out what they make of Sizemore. Hafner is mysterious; he could hang in there and OPS around 800 to 900 for the next couple of years, or be gone in a few weeks.
Personally, I think the time off might have been better for Choo than if he had played all this time; with nothing to suggest that his issues were anything but mental. Granted, I know nothing about this stuff. But I did pick him up in my fantasy league, so my speculation is a punctilio more than idle.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
This team has given stat-geek fans more than a few nice reminders that playing baseball is more than plugging in numbers. From Carrasco to Choo, among others, we’ve humbly accepted the volatility of the human psyche and its immeasurable impact on performance. And I hope you’re right about Choo.
Didn’t you just go on a tirade about Carrasco’s mental issues being non-existant?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
You missed this week’s thread, didn’t you?
Following Carrasco’s ejection, I admitted I was wrong about his potential emotional volatility. Obviously he has some immaturity to try to temper. But I still think there is way, way too much tendency to say, “He gave up a two-run double? He’s a head case! See, I told you!”
Right. It’s chalking every failure up to his head issues rather than the fact that he’s a pitcher and makes mistakes.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Not beat a dead horse, but I’m dead tired of this thrust.
You know what isn’t fun? Arguments where the combatants are maybe three degrees apart from total agreement … yet each still manages to imply that the other must be some kind of an idiot.
We really are better than that, and we have real idiots to combat.
by Jay on Jul 31, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For the record, I was aiming for sarcasm with my original post. Poorly done.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I think its a reasonable expectation. His OPS+ before the DUI was over 100 and I feel (and even he feels) that his problem was mental due to that incident. he has gone to court and paid his dues, I am expecting “normal” choo.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
All of these. Anyone having kittens over this deal doesn’t understand how baseball works.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Not true.
Anyone not liking this deal just likes their team’s prospects a bit too much. Which is OK. Of course we get attached to players that are drafted by the Indians.
The minefields that Pomeranz and Gardner – and even White – have to navigate between where they are and being an effective starting pitcher are well documented. Maybe I overstated it a little bit, but I think we also would have had to be a more than a little lucky to get both White and Pomz to the majors and as effective as we hoped for them to be.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Not to nitpick, but who’s upset about Gardner?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that it makes us considerably stronger for the next 2.5 years (provided Ubaldo is healthy, of course).
I think when people talk about “mortgaging the future,” they were thinking that we’d be competing for most of this decade. With the potential exoduses of this team around 2014 or so, that window is much shorter, barring restocking the farm system with significant talent from this year’s draft and future drafts.
Certainly, if we can win the WS in the next few years, and with continued development, we’d be in a position to, but I’m presuming with the Indians’ mindset often focusing on the future, I’m suspecting that they know that the farm system has to be restocked in order to keep the “waves” of prospects coming, as the loss of Pomeranz and White does reduce that depth by a good margin, especially since Rondon is still not back from injury, House is stalling and struggling at High-A, and Sterling is just getting acclimated to Low-A. At this point, Sterling looks like he’s on track, but the other two noted prospects are serious question marks to make up that next wave when our current window starts closing.
As Lastoria mentioned, perhaps the Indians are more concerned about White’s finger than they’re letting on, concerned that it could be a problem in the future, which is all the more reason why they were willing to part with both Pom and White (besides wanting Jimenez, of course).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The only way the Indians could contend for a decade is if they hit the playoffs three years in a row and starting packing the stands again.
whey they talk about mortgaging the future, they are expecting Pomz and White to both live up to their potential and forgetting that masterson could still get better and Carrasco still has a long way to go until his peak potential.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I know we gave up a lot, but I must be dreaming. We have a young dominant ace in masterson and we just traded for a #1/#2 guy? And we have a 24 year old in Carrasco with ridiculous upside who is playing well? This. Can’t. Be. Happening!
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
his last start was brutal and he hasn’t been great recently but he has a sub 4.5 ERA since the end of may and 7 of his 11 starts have been quality starts. He also has a positive GB/FB ratio and a solid K/BB ratio. He has just been victimized recently by the longball
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Right on, Evan
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
a hundred times this.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
serious question: what are the odds we can ink ubaldo to an extension to try to widen that “window”.. it would take away some of the hurt of losing white/pom to have ubaldo locked up for another year or two
I doubt they are even worried about it. If they get Ubaldo through 2013 and he’s as good as he’s been the past two years, then the deal was worth it.
Let the Yankees pay twenty per for his thirties. I’ll enjoy the next 2 1/2 years, thanks.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a dream scenario to have a pitcher locked up for exactly three years, with the third year not even guaranteed. I guess they can think about an extension in the offseason, but there’s no good argument for doing more than a two-year extension, compared with the great risk/reward of what they’ve already got.
Love Keith Law, but he’s not connecting the dots inside within his own analysis of the Tribe. He thinks we should planning for 3-5 years out, but here’s a more realistic scenario.
-We don’t have any impact hitters to replace Sizemore, Choo and Hafner in 1-3 years. Even Law doesn’t believe Kipnis and Chiz are at those levels of potential production. Our outfield could be Carrera, Brantley, Ben Francisco and Trevor Crowe.
-Masterson, Carrasco, and Carmona start to get expensive in 3 years.
-Kansas City will likely rise in 1-2 years.
-Detroit and Chicago can gorge on free agents or salary whenever they want. Wildcards.
-Minnesota is stuck with a $20 million catcher playing first, and no pitching, but they could be back next year.
Keith is wrong. The Indians should be taking advantage of this moment. But even if he’s right, he’s wrong. We could still sell Ubaldo off for a good package next year at this time if we sink. He really fails to see that we have irreplaceable parts leaving in the near future.
BTW Keith, our sucky record recently is the result not only of a tougher schedule, but significant time lost to Sizemore, Choo, Hafner, and two rookies in the lineup who are just getting their feet wet. It’s not that we don’t have talent. Our only ticket is to bank on our talent coming through in the next couple of months, and next year.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jul 31, 2011 12:35 AM EDT reply actions
I, too, love Keith Law, but his reasoning for being against this trade sucks. White is a top pitching prospect, Keith? After you said that he won’t stick as a starter and left him out of your top 100 list? What on earth?
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 31, 2011 1:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This has been said before, but Keith Law covers the minors. Just like people may sometimes overvalue guys in our system we like, he may overvalue prospects and undervalue proven guys.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I, too, loveKeith Law, but his reasoning for being against this tradesucks.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Maybe you were. I don’t deal well with smug pricks regardless of context.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
At the risk of being obvious …
Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster; and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you.
Fair enough. I think it’s mostly out of my system.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
God I hate him
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
i dont know how i feel so I am interested to read this thread
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 12:37 AM EDT reply actions
I love Ubaldo, but we screwed up in dealing both guys. White reminds me of Clemens. I’ll register here that I hate this trade. Hate it. Hate it.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 12:44 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Dunno if I’d say Clemens – but I couldn’t agree with you more on the hate of this trade.
I just want to believe.
Was at the game tonight, though. That was fun. So that’s good.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 12:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I fully understand TINSTAAPP, but I really really believe White and Pomeranz will both pan out. Tossing in Gardner was an excessive addition to an already loaded package.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Don’t care about Gardner. He won’t amount to anything special.
This is a disaster.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
TINSTAAP is wrong. Both these guys can pitch in the bigs next week. They’re beyond prospect status.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, this is batshit insane
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
No, “I just don’t see it in Carrasco” is insane. I’ve followed Akron for the entire history of the affiliate. I know a little bit about what a pitching prospect or non-prospect looks like. Just a little.
I know that you don’t really follow the minors. I know that you can’t tell the difference between White / Pomz and Sowers’ / Huff et al.
You know I can’t tell the difference between Pomeranz and Sowers? You know? Boy, you know an awful lot about me, John.
Careful, hubris can come back to bite you.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I literally have no idea what you’re talking about
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s trying to say that he knows, and you know. And you know that he knows. Duh.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Turk and I argued about hubris several months ago. We understand that meta side of this conversation. Turk is only pretending otherwise.
But Turk and I go way back on this blog. I don’t know who you are or what you’re doing trying to nip at me.
I’m not pretending to do anything. In all honesty, I don’t remember that conversation.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it had to do with my criticism of the numbers / countdown meme. I think I called it hubris. You especially called me a party pooper, which I suppose I was. Perhaps I took too hard of a line, but then I did not think that everything was going so great.
This was around the time I called the offense “defective”—remember that? For that I took quite a bit of ridicule, since at that point we had somehow scored a fair share of runs in spite of ourselves.
Ah, gotcha. Couldn’t remember the context. I have no regrets. I enjoyed the winning while it lasted. One of the reasons I was so willing to be an over the top cheerleader was because I was pretty sure we weren;t as good as we appeared. In a year we’re supposed to contend, I’d fear jinxing it. This year, every win was another middle finger to national sports media, so I enjoyed it.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 1, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I have my own superstitions. Who can watch this game without them?
I think we’re at the point where we’re now underachieving. I am not happy with where we’re at, despite any preseason predictions.
I always expect this team to excel, no matter the payroll or what the pundits will say. I hold the Indians to a very high standard.
This year, every win was another middle finger to national sports media, so I enjoyed it.
Why?
I don’t understand why you’re upset at the media when they stated the obvious — that the Indians weren’t as good as they way they played early in the season. You even said so yourself. I don’t understand how you can admit that the Indians weren’t that good but at the same time be upset at any media member who did the same.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 1, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand why you’re so offended on behalf of the national media. I like Cleveland as an underdog — both in sports and in other aspects of life. Sometimes, it’s fun to take on an “us vs. them” mentality, particularly in regard to sports, where the stakes don’t actually matter for anything. In real life, there’s very rarely a place for that kind of attitude. In sports, sometimes the lack of nuance is part of the charm.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
Brad has a different view of ESPN and its ilk than many of us do. Personally, I find ESPN to be complicit in the current economic state of baseball, by devoting so much attention to a short list of big market clubs, which permits those clubs to finance ridiculous payrolls with media revenue (not, granted, coming directly from the national media, but I doubt YES exists but for the way ESPN has covered the sport for the last decade). ESPN also directly created the Yankees-Red Sox arms race by creating a mythology around a rivalry that was never quite as intense as the media made it seem.
ESPN also acted in a truly reprehensible way with regard to that former Cleveland basketball player and the fallout thereafter, so screw them.
by FredOx on Aug 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So if ESPN had started in Columbus instead of Bristol, ESPN would have pushed the Indians and the Reds?
I’m probably lumped in with Brad here. I still enjoy parts of ESPN’s coverage (TV, radio, online). As their coverage has gotten broader, there are many things that I don’t find valuable, so I choose to ignore them. I don’t get why it has to be all or nothing, like is the majority opinion around here. So therefore, I’m branded as an ESPN apologist.
Anyway, I’ll humbly suggest that the internet and the Yankees success in the 1990’s fueled an already larger (compared to other teams) demand of coverage. And ESPN is oh-so-happy to meet that demand. 7foot3 has it right (above). There are many, many more people that are interested in Yanks-Sox coverage than Indians coverage. The reason they show so many Yanks-Sox games is that they draw the highest numbers. I see the cause and effect that way, not the other way around.
Just my opinion. Fire away.
Again, ESPN following the money. They knew it would be a huge draw. And every other channel out there would have loved to have those ratings.
unfortunately they live in a society that is driven by an unquenchable thirst for ratings and I hate to say it, but you don’t get very high ratings by giving a ton of coverage to the mariners, twins and indians.
to me, they are more of a symptom of a problem but not the problem itself
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
That shows every game’s highlights and gives all storylines whether big or small market a fairer shake.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 2, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The analysts aren’t great but I wouldn’t expect them to be. The approach is radically better though.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 2, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on, man. You’re way ahead of yourself. People who knew a ton more about baseball than you do assured us all that Ben MacDonald was the next big thing. I’m going with the 120 year TINSTAAPP sample size over your experience watching Akron.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Granted. The Adam Miller comp is apt.
But that’s what we’re hanging on to justify the cost? The hope that one of these guys flops?
I think I first proposed trading for Ubaldo here, but I whiffed on the cost side. I took the velocity decline very seriously and thought we’d be buying low on Ubaldo; thought maybe one of these guys could go in such a deal.
How will we all feel if he fails the physical?
I’m very suprised, to say the least. I do like Ubaldo and I hope for the best.
Regarding the proper package, take White out of what we gave them and I’d be thrilled with this deal. Even replace McBride with Phelps or LWash and I’d be happy.
But this I’ll never be comfortable with until Ubaldo leads us deep into the playoffs.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
What did we used to say, judge the process, not the outcome? I mean, I am fine with it if I can believe our window to contend is longer than this year and the next. And I don’t like our chances this year.
So I really want to see Lindor sign and then progress like Trout has. And then I want to see two of our mothballed erstwhile pitching prospects make big comebacks. Add in a couple happy surprises along the way, and maybe I’ll believe that we have the depth to keep this machine running.
I’m judging the process, and I still love this move.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Aug 1, 2011 7:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And we all know, pitching prospects immediately adjust to the majors and thrive. We know that for a fact, because that happens all the time, in fact that’s the ONLY thing that ever happens to pitching prospects.
Honestly, do facts enter into your thinking at all on this subject?
by Jay on Jul 31, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Sure. I know what a fact looks like. Anyone want to propose a nice baseball fact? Anyone want to put their rep up on that high horse?
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
FACT: Orlando Cabrera sucks.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’m coming at you live from Lakewood’s Kennilworth (sic?). Their are two pulses here: “who’s Ubaldo,” and “not sure I like this trade.” For what it’s worth.
So is this damned trade just for Ubaldo? What about Ty Wiggington? Would hate this less in that case.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not a fan of the lobster tank? Got any better ideas?
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hear Around the Corner is good…all my experiences in Kennilworth and playing against their softball and basketball teams have been negative. High Pedroia factor. Bonnie and Clyde’s on Madison is a fantastic bar.
I’ve gone to ATC for years. Just whistled past it. Good place to meet attractive women, as ever. It has its drawbacks, the huge crowds highest among them. I’ll stop there.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 2:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like the lobster tank
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I always thought they should replace those things with puppy dog machines…the chef still get’s to prepare the “winnings” for you as well.
That is twisted
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Son of a gun, the tank’s gone. At least the pool table still has the same tilt. Home court advantage.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Anyone can believe anything. Doesn’t make it true or likely in any way.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What? The Clemens comparison is crazy. When Clemens was White’s age he had an 80 fastball…White’s fastball doesn’t get anywhere near that in its evaluation.
He’s kidding, right? Right?!
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 31, 2011 1:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you just compared him to one of the what, 20 best pitchers of all time?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Top 5 or 10, I’d think, without running numbers.
by afh4 on Jul 31, 2011 1:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Certainly top 10, probably top 5, and I’ve heard people make a case that he’s the best ever.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 31, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions
On the other hand, I’ve heard people make the case he’s the third-best right-handed pitcher of his generation. But this is neither the time nor the place.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I am somewhere in the middle of you and seemingly everyone else here.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 31, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Clemens?! That’s rich.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
You realize I was one of the last people to respond to your comment, right? So why the harassment?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You show up to call me “batshit insane,” not to give a specific criticism.
I have no quarrel with you. Do you want me to broadcast my diagnosis?
Not calling you insane, calling the comp insane. Apologies if it came off that way. One could – and many have – argued that my anti-Carrasco stance is insane. Probably because it might be. Doesn’t mean I’m insane. Not sure what you mean by “diagnosis,” though.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is the 300-win disparity between Clemens and White. I know that’s an idiot stat, but you have to be doing something right just to stick around that long.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
or doing something illegal…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
something not completely illegal that won his team championships.
i don’t know about you but I would like a championship.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Well, there’s only one thing left to do.
Win the whole. Damn. Thing.
by tr1betime on Jul 31, 2011 12:45 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
He doesn’t have a no-trade clause. Did he threaten to get injured if traded?
by xrickx on Jul 31, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Man, if we do tank the 2013 season, we will have a whole slew of guys we can flip at the deadline: Ubaldo, Hafner (if we sign his extension), Choo and Asdrubal (if we can’t get them signed) and maybe Carmona if he is sill here.
by Toxicadam on Jul 31, 2011 12:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Pomeranz is the one that hurts the most, but as I said earlier, he is something of a “trade high” candidate. White looked great when I saw him in Cleveland, but that finger injury is scary in thinking about the importance of developing his slider. Gardner is probably not much, but is the biggest “sell low” guy in the trade. This is a very different kind of trade than we have seen in recent years. It will be fun to watch it play out. Chisenhall, Kipnis and Santana have to be ecstatic about how the season is playing out at this point. It should be a fun group to watch over the next two months.
I didn’t think about it in developing a slider. If he keeps working on developing it, he may keep getting injured and become Adam miller. If not, he is a bullpen arm.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Hell, we kept Beau Mills, so that’s nice.
I think he’ll be traded for Ludwick tomorrow, though.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:12 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I was just joshin, baiting the know-it-alls.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Like, we might literally make that trade. And that’ll be whatever. Fine, I guess.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That would literally be a very good trade, considering Mills will almost assuredly not make an impact at the big league level.
Well he’s cheap, and he scouts fairly well.
by jhon on Jul 31, 2011 1:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There’s a real chance Ludwick also won’t.
by jakesinger777 on Jul 31, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
We really should disable the LGT mobile feature
by supermarioelia on Jul 31, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Especially when it’s belligerent drunkenness
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
We did not give up a Matt Moore or Julio Teheran.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 1:19 AM EDT reply actions
What I mean is, go look at Pomeranz and White’s numbers. They’re good.
They are not great.
Ubaldo is less than four years older than these guys and is on an insanely team-friendly contract.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m just relieved we got the top Ubaldo Jimenez. I was worried we were going to go out and get one of those middling Ubaldos.
Contracts, not players. And we got a hell of a contract.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 1:27 AM EDT reply actions
I’m reading through the threads at Purple Row right now. They’re uncomfortably reminiscent of ours from 2009.
I think it’s fair to both love and loathe this trade.
Me, I’m thrilled that for once we’re involved in a major trade in which we’re selling off the big piece.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 1:44 AM EDT reply actions
This was the best-case scenario trade. Really happy about it.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jul 31, 2011 1:52 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Castro has written an excellent summary of the deal, which says just about what this thread does:
http://t.co/JcYVFwq
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Like Antonetti’s attitude. All for seeing this season as an opportunity and not treating contending in August as a given in future seasons.
Len Barker Perfect Game Attendee
by PortlandVinny on Jul 31, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Misses the mark, which is strange for Castro. He’s arguing that this move shows we’re focused solely on winning in 2011. He utterly misses the hugely important aspect of getting a guy for an additional two years at a team-friendly contract. And while we’re all aware of the question marks, Castro downplays the road ERA and underplays the almost otherworldly feat of what Ubaldo did for half a season in that park. I mean, it’s like me playing the US Open, announcing I’ll play left-handed for fun, and then shooting 59. Sure, I don’t have the talent to shoot 59 all four rounds, but damn if that isn’t a sign of the kind of talent few players possess, ever.
Natural consequence of his “promotion,” I’d think. He’s all over the place now—I think the only reason he remains focused on Cleveland at all is because he’s a fan.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 31, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I like this trade. I think our best shot is through 2013, while we have all our hitters under contract. Even if White and Pomz were both to develop into aces, with the way pitching prospects develop, it’s not going to happen in that window. Ubaldo isn’t a sure thing, but no pitcher is, and he was the absolute best piece available at the deadline.
And the guys are cleveland.com are already calling him Ubama. What the hell.
Good luck Indian fans
You’re gonna love Ubaldo. He’s one of those guys you get extra excited about seeing every 5th day. In other words, on days when it’s an Ubaldo start, you’re gonna be itching for game time to arrive even more than usual.
He’s got some weapons that you just don’t see very often – May he lead you to a World Series this fall.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 31, 2011 5:31 AM EDT reply actions
Alright. Now that I’ve slept on it, I like this trade more. Maybe I’m talking myself into it under the “if you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist” theory, but it’ll be nice to cheer on Ubaldo every 5th day, rather than checking the box score in Akron to follow Pomeranz this year (and presumably the Columbus box score next year).
As for White, I really did like him, but the finger injury is a concern. I’ll still be rooting for him in Colorado.
1.31 HR/9 at Coors and 0.15 HR/9 on the road…
4.60 FIP at home to 2.49 on the road.
I knew Coors was a hitter ball park, but Ubaldo’s splits are just crazy
It's crazy
I have no explanation for why they are THAT far apart. Especially when you look at Juan Nicasio’s splits for the Rockies at the same time.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 31, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
you are really going to make a point based on a SSS of 11 starts by a rookie? Look at team splits if you want anything. Team ERA, Whip, and opposing batting average. the K/BB ratio is actually better at home.
The Rockies pitchers also have an OPS+ of 122 on fly balls and 112 on line drives. This is at home and on the road and could be higher at home. The Indians for example are slightly under the league average on flies and line drives. The ball just carries there and soft liners that could stay in the infield make it out.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I thought the humidor solved that. It’s still a hitter’s park?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Did they really think that storing the baseball like a cigar would stop it from getting smoked?
by JimmyAB on Jul 31, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
We are approaching and will most certainly reach 1000 comments in the attempt to come to terms with this. What have we established? Great contract for an established pitcher with ace ‘stuff’ who has at times performed as an ace. We don’t like giving up our best prospects. We just don’t know how it will turn out. Castro (article referenced above) provides a balanced & sober account that comes down to this: we don’t know, but we are going to try to win now. With these points in mind, a few comments for those who “hate” the trade:
1. It improves our chances of winining ballgames right now, and consequently reaching the playoffs. Instead of having Masterson and 4 guys we hope will perform well on any given day, we now have a 2nd Masterson.
2. If you don’t think Antonetti and crew are ‘thinking ahead’, think again. But let’s just think ahead 8 weeks. Despite our struggles, we have just as good a chance as Detroit at winning the division. Just given the ebb & flow of baseball, you cannot expect that we will continue to fail to score at this rate. Now, should we come out on top, we enter the playoffs with a 1-2 punch as good as anyone’s. Simply making it past the obligatory games played in a playoff series (3 or 4, depending on series) brings major cash advantages (in the millions). So potentially a big financial payoff already this year…Just thinking ahead.
3 The TINSTAPP issue has been bantered around, so let’s give it a name: Brian Matusz. Don’t believe me? 4th overall pick in 2008 draft out of USD. Tall lefty throwing low 90’s can dial it up to 94, good change, great curve, GREAT control and polished. First year in A+/AA he overmatched the competition (19 starts, 11-2, 1.91 era, 1.053 whip, 113 ip, 121k, 32bb). Going into 2009, prospect ranking: BA: 25, MLB: 20 (mid-season #8). Going into 2010, BA #5. (For comparison, Pomz at similar point #32 (mlb) and #61 BA). Matusz’ first season average, struggled at first but came on strong at end. Some injury issues this year and is back in AAA. Of course the book has not been written on him, but don’t forget that A+/AA saviors take time to come around.
by DocNo on Jul 31, 2011 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Very good point on Matusz. He may still end up being a great pitcher, but even in the few instances when that happens for a prospect, it can be a long road with diversions along the way.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say the only team that can match our 1-2 punch (or 1-2-3 if you include tomlin) is the Angels, but they don’t have our bullpen to close out games.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m not impressed by Porcello but verlander and scherzer vs himenez and masterson is a great set of matchups. Luckily though if we make the playoffs we won’t be facing them. What would be our other 1-2 matchups in the american league?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Scherzer seems to be having a down year, but Verlander makes up for it. I still think that we have a better overall rotation right now, but they may have a younger one at the front end (because of porcello)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Weaver-Haren-(Ervin) (F me)
Beckett-Lester (we got this)
PlayoffCC-Burnett (LOL)
Wilson-Ogando/Holland/Lewis/Hunter (I’ll take Masterson and Ubaldo over any 2 of those)
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
But my eyes say that Pomeranz and White are left-handed versions of Bob Feller and Roger Clemens…
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 31, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Position players are the new market inefficiency?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
I know, I know, I KNOW it’s absurd to read cle.com. But this is truly the very first comment I found:
“Why I don’t like this trade. First, I have been suggesting for a couple of weeks to bring up BOTH Pomeranz and White and tandem them in the same games, letting each go 4 innings.”
There are 338 more comments of that ilk just waiting for me. I was going to read them, but instead I found a dull, rusted razor and I’m going to shave off my arm hair.
I’ve always wondered this…Are Clecommers your “average” Indians fans? LGT seems to be the more “advanced” fanbase, but when looking at a regular Indians fan in Cleveland, are they more likely to be in the same ilk as Clecom, LGT, or neither?
Having grown up in NY and seeing some fan reactions to Mets trades in the past, I worry that Ubaldo may get booed in his first start if the average fan doesn’t like the trade. I hope this doesn’t happen, but those of you who live in Cleveland, or who have lived in Cleveland, may have a more informed answer to this.
I think most internet sites attract the worst of society. Most “average” Indians fans I interact with in real life are some degree of dumb, but not that degree of dumb.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I will go into the “average fan” by going to my friends on facebook’s reactions. I got 2 likes on a status about Ubaldo coming here and most other statuses were heavily in favor of the deal (though one person was just frustrated that we may have given up too much). most are pretty avid fans, but not as advanced as LGT.
I think the average fan is closer to LGT than cleveland.com
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I love it. Neither Pom nor White’s ceiling is as high as what Ubaldo has been producing away from Coors. Ubaldo’s contract is awesome. Toss in the fact that White has already been injured, plus the unlikely event that ANY AA pitcher contributes at the MLB level, and I’ll take it and do a backfilp.
gte619n’s Post-Trade Demands
I demand that MLB.tv reshoot the Ubaldo commercial shot for shot using Indians’ uniforms immediately; however, I graciously request that Kosuke Fukudome play the Ubaldo roll, and that Ubaldo walk in at the end to say the bus is leaving.
Further Questions:
How does this affect Adam Miller’s chances of a September Callup?
I don’t think Miller has much of a chance of a September callup anymore. It seems like his arm might be getting tired from the season.
In his last 3 appearances, Miller has gone 5.1 innings, giving up 18 hits, 3 walks, and 13 ER, with only 3 Ks.
In his last 10, he’s gone 14.2 innings with 25 H, 16 ER, 6 BB, and 13 K.
I’d argue that Pomz upside is as high as what Ubaldo is giving but he needs to show he can go more than 5 innings before I can buy into that potential fully. I will go for the proven Ubaldo over Pomz potential every time if we can keep Ubaldo for multiple years.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Buster Olney claiming on ESPN segment that the Yankees were in talks with Colorado and asked if they could make the deal contingent on giving a physical to Ubaldo, and Colorado said no, they cannot give him a physical.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
I’ve been told in this thread that the origin of this report is a guy named Sherman, whose word you should not take on this.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
Well, if it was true, it sounds to me like we fleeced them!
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The further in the past this gets the more I like it. Neyer brings up a good point:
The Indians are poor, but money’s not really a consideration here because Jiménez is owed just $4.2 million in 2012 and $5.75 in 2013. He’s affordable for any team in the majors. What’s more, while the Indians will have to deal two or three top prospects to get Jiménez, in the event that they’re not contending next summer, they could quite probably deal him for two or three other top prospects. Unless he’s hurt.
So the Rockies take the sure thing, the Indians take a chance. It’s been said somewhere in the previous 800 comments but the Indians only get so many opportunities to take worthwhile gambles. With the division down and the team being reset in a couple of years, this seems as good a time as any to give up some long term options for the here and now. I know it might not come out positive in the SABER calculator, to which I generally subscribe, but just because the Indians might be better in 2-3 years by hanging onto these guys doesn’t mean they’ll be better than Detroit and Chicago.
The notion that this move is not “sabermetrically sound” should go out the window right now. It’s plenty sound by the math.
I don’t disagree, but I do keep hearing it for whatever reason. And of course there is more than one way to saber a cat, or however that goes.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
What sure thing would that be?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading while Ubaldo’s stock is high, something the Indians might not have the chance to do in 2012.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
But the Indians traded White and Pomeranz while their stock is high, something the Rockies may not have the chance to do… EVER.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
True, I can see both sides of this. Imo this still feels like the Indians taking a chance. The Rockies now have prospects, and prospects don’t always pan out, but there are four players total, two highly rated, and to me that feels like a safer bet than putting all your eggs with one ace. You also need Ubaldo to perform now to get the value out of this, the Rockies can be more patient, although I have to confess I have no idea what kind of contracts White and Pomeranz have.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
And for the record I think it’s a smart gamble to take, I’m more than happy with the way the last couple of days have played out. I’m not trying to argue this was a dumb move.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
To me, Gardner and Mcbride are throw-ins. Even if they ever manage to have value for the Rockies, I highly doubt they would have ever had value for Cleveland in any meaningful way that can’t be easily found in someone else.
I think that the “taking a chance” aspect is always with the people relying on prospects who may or may not pan out in the future.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Here are some things worth thinking about.
1. Maybe the Tribe brass isn’t so confident in its new method of drafting and “turnaround” in that department as it has been letting on. (consider we gave up all players we drafted).
2. Weigh the ability of Carmona vs. Ubaldo, and then compare their salaries. How is this not a steal, no matter what we gave up?
3. Ubaldo is a major league pitcher right now. He literally can start for us, effectively, within days.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions
Also, I think Antonetti probably thinks along the same lines as me that our team is not as bad as our recent 23-36 record. Plus, with a solid starting rotation (now solidified with Ubaldo), inching our way into the playoffs even with a laughable record, can yield huge dividends.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
This is where I think the real upside is. The team can’t really afford to get off to an attendance start like they did this year every spring until 2014 or whenever an Indians team that “sold” at the deadline would be able to rebuild and take advantage of whatever prospects came on board.
This is all I mean by “chance” — and I think we’re arguing semantics at this point, one team traded their risk for another team’s risk — the Indians need the IR guys to get healthy and Ubaldo to pitch very well. If those things happen this move has the potential to totally revitalize the franchise. If not, it probably sets the team back a couple extra years beyond what would have happened under the previously mentioned “sell” scenario.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I was referring to winning a world series. Do you mean revitalizing in terms of attendance? If so, that probably also won’t happen without winning a world series.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I was talking about both, probably the same thing like you said.
by Kevin Powers on Jul 31, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
In the event that the team withers (like I expect it to) and this trade looks short-sighted (like I think it does) the salvage value of Jimenez down the road is the saving grace for those who (like I do) detest this trade.
I still trust Antonetti and co. to bargain, despite some notable recent misses. It is also nice to have coveted players to deal, such as these two exceptional prospects. And I do mean exceptional.
That said, our farm system looking very depleted today, July 31st 2011. I would suggest using the windfalls of this momentum to aggressively pursue international signings and redouble the scouting enterprise, or something.
I count Jay Jaffe, Rany Jazayerli, Jeff Passan and Joe Sheehan mostly in favor of it. Keith Law against it. At least with the non-Tribe scribe pundits I’ve heard thus far.
Law’s rationale is still weird though. Without context to the quality of the current club, it seems like he would think the Indians won the trade.
just like some may overvalue prospects we have and watch regularly, he overvalues the concept of a prospect because those are the players he focuses on and he is undervaluing getting a top of the rotation guy
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
That’s actually not my beef. My beef is that he thinks the Indians should be playing for year 2014 based on his rationale. But if you were to believe his take on the organization’s prospects, it’s unlikely many of our guys owuld develop into impact players. So in this year 2014 that Law thinks we should be targeting, we face the reality of having lost Asdrubal, Grady, Hafner, Choo and a number of prospects that didn’t materialize. Not to mention that it’s over 3 years away.
I’m guessing Law didn’t bother glancing at Cot’s before writing his analysis. That, or he’s assuming the team will trade Sizemore, Hafner, Choo, Cabrera, and Smith in ’12 and ’13 for MLB ready talent.
Fat chance getting MLB-ready impact talent in return. Damaged goods (Sizemore), Damaged goods/DH (Hafner), Boras/underperformance (Choo). Maybe if Sizemore has a Beltran-like resurgence next year.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Aug 2, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t like the deal at first, mainly because I think Pomeranz has a good chance to be really, really good. But I feel better about it now, and that’s partly due to to reasoned commentary I get from this blog. When I post, I usually post because I feel I have something to offer, but there are many threads where I just read. I’m well-versed in the analytical part of the game, but as my kids grow older and more time is devoted to them, I just can’t immerse myself in everything the way I used to. So it’s nice to be able to come here and get the information I need…for that, I say thank you. And to the idiots…well I just ignore you. ;)
I think one thing that is frustrating to many who are wary of this deal is that it’s been a long time since the Tribe developed a couple “big-horse” starting pitchers, one of whom looks like an ace. And they immediately trade them. That’s not a reason to not trade them, but I think that’s where some of the disappointment is coming from.
Lastly, I caught Dan O’Dowd on MLB network, and I thought one of his comments was interesting. He described Ubaldo as “an ace for us, but probably a 2 or a 3.” Hmmm.
That does sum up where much of my disappointment is coming from.
You don’t see equivalent potential in White?
Best-case scenario? A notch under. But he’ll never reach that.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Aug 1, 2011 6:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t see White as having the same ceiling as Pomeranz.
White doesn’t have the breaking ball that Pomeranz has. He won’t miss as many bats. Also, some scouts still think White will end up in the bullpen. And, he throws nothing slower than 87…that’s not necessarily bad, but that slider wasn’t too impressive in the very short time he was up with the Tribe. Then he hurts himself throwing that slider.
If White stays healthy, I could see him being an innings horse with that fastball and being a #2-type. That’s the way I see it as of now. Maybe I’m dead wrong.
I would personally see him the most optimistically as a #3 innings horse who has nasty stuff, but doesn’t miss bats. (kind of like Fausto when he is playing well, like last year)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
DOD has it backwards.
He’s a 2 or 3 in CO, but a stud ace in most parks. I love the guy, but Denver destroys arms long-term. I think he will thrive in Cleveland, at least for a while.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: Re-arranging the deck chairs on the S.S. Failboat
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Aug 1, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Rockies fan here...
Congrats on landing Ubaldo (a.k.a The Chief and Hair Be There). You got a stud and an all-around good guy. He WILL give you some electrifying moments. Treasure them. He is a pleasure to watch.
More generally, I am thrilled you are in the thick of the race. I really do hope you win the Whole. Freaking. Thing.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: Re-arranging the deck chairs on the S.S. Failboat
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Aug 1, 2011 12:10 AM EDT reply actions
We try, or at least I do
No sense in spewing venom. Besides, there are a lot of us who feel a certain affinity for teams like the Indians. Gotta do what you can to compete when the piggybank isn’t bottomless.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: Re-arranging the deck chairs on the S.S. Failboat
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Aug 1, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus there must be some sense of relief in seeing your guy go to someone other than the Yankees, Red Sox, et al.
by jakesinger777 on Aug 1, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Last season Jiminez was one of the hardest throwing starters. His avg fastball was around 96mph. There have been reports that his velocity is down this year. His K numbers are on par with his career, but he’s getting hit a bit harder this year. Add to that O’Dowd’s willingness to trade him (especially considering his contract) and I’m concerned. And ofcourse this is the Indians, the Cleveland Indians.
Everyone’s been saying this. Not knowing much about mechanics/etc is there any chance he’s figured out how to pitch “smarter” (whatever that means) and simply doesn’t need an extra 3 MPH because of better location or something?
The going theory, on the optimistic side seems to think that the groin and thumb issues hurt him early on and he’s not building back to his normal mechanics and the strength needed to run them, etc.
The pessimistic theory, of course, is that he’s broken.
The truth might be closer to what you’re saying—that he’s a different pitcher because he’s lost some velocity (for whatever reason) and that that new pitcher might also be effective (or might now). I do not thin, however, that he’s chosen not to “use” the extra 3 MPH because he finds it unnecessary.
It seems that the low end of the range hasn’t fallen, but that the range has become compressed. He’s not throwing any 100 MPH fastballs, but he’s not throwing any 88 MPH ones either. This may be due to his spring thumb and groin issues. It may be because he wanted to work on his control (before his disastrous and unnecessary pre-trade inning, he was headed to the lowest walk rate of his career). Or maybe he’s broken.
Loss of velocity isn’t the end of the analysis – we used the #5 pick on a guy whose velocity was down.
and even if you look at the years before, the lower bound on velocity has gone down. Even if he is only going to throw 93 from now on, it seems like he is becoming a more in control pitcher every year
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Well, it’s hard to say. Your observation may certainly be correct. However, it’s also possible that there was a much higher degree of variability in both radar guns and how pitches were classified in previous years. That is also a possible reason for the lower ranges in prior years.
It’s also possible Jimenez has chosen to focus more on command and has forgone the extra velocity…but I have no real idea if that’s true.
its all speculation at this point but I would say the 2nd paragraph seems a bit more feasible than the first. And the focus on command could have something to do with the injury (wanting to hold back and not just crank it out)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m hoping the variation in radar guns and classification can be used as excuses for Chris Perez’s drop in velocity, too.
Tom Verducci wrote nearly the EXACT same thing last Friday.
Actually kind of stunningly similar…
by The DiaTriber on Aug 1, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
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