Jeff Passan's take on the Ubaldo deal
His bottom line? Worth the risk. I agree.
10 months ago
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That WAS a good article.
I still think we slightly overpaid but I feel 20x better about it now. (And for whatever reason, I didn’t know Ulbaldo regularly hit 100 mph last season. That makes a huge difference.)
The most important thing this article made me realize is that Ulbaldo doesn’t have to be an ace in order for us to win this trade.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
I went to bed last night liking the deal. I woke up hating the deal. Here are my reasons why.
1. It is wrong to label White and Pomeranz as prospects. They could have helped the big league team today. Not as much as Jimenez this season, but only because of White’s injury. Stuff-wise they are in the top 5 pitchers of the whole organization (Masterson, Carrasco, Carmona are the other three). That is current skill level. White would be starting now without his injury, and I think Pomeranz should also be starting.
2. Jimenez is now the top pitcher the tribe has. He is a big upgrade. Even if they somehow made the playoffs this year without this trade, they could not have gone anywhere in the playoffs. Now with this trade, if they somehow make the playoffs (it is a pretty long shot now), I would say that the chance of them winning it all has doubled. I think it also doubles their chance of winning next year. This may be generous, but really it is doubling from a low level. And that is the problem. Maybe an extra 1% chance this year (from 1 to 2%) and an extra 2% next year (from 2 to 4%). Still pretty thin. (On a side note: can these long odds come home for a Cleveland team just once?)
3. Yes, White and/or Pomeranz can get injured and never produce. Look at Adam Miller. But so can Jimenez. Better to take your chances with 2 instead of 1.
4. Finally, Jimenez can be flipped in 2 years if the team flops and he stays Ubaldo. But the fruits of that flipping won’t arrive until 2016 at best. Pomeranz and White arrive in 2012.
Really it all comes down to point 1. These guys are not prospects anymore. The Tigers would have had Pomeranz in the rotation at the all-star break. So you are trading 2 starting pitchers for 1. That does not make sense.
by oxforddave on Jul 31, 2011 6:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Except Ubaldo is well past the injury nexus and Pomz/White are right in the thick of it. You can’t say that it’s just as likely Ubaldo will have a major injury as they will. History is totally against you.
The Tigers are morons with their pitching prospects. I’m glad we don’t do things in their mold.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Off the top of my head, here are the “stuff” guys that the Tiger said: Hell, just put him in the majors and let him figure it out there.
Verlander
Bonderman
Zumaya
Porcello
Not a bad record. Top three got them to a world series before 2 blew out their arms.
Here are the tribe “stuff” guys from the last 10 years
Sabathia
Miller
Who knows, maybe the tribe would have brought Miller up after 1 year in the minors (he was in the big league camp, before blowing out his elbow). Colon would have been before that.
Maybe this is the source of my discontent. We finally had “stuff” pitching prospects after years where the prospects were of the Tallet-Sowers-Huff variety.
But now we have a “stuff” ace who isn’t a prospect but the real deal now.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you recall Fausto throwing 97 mph sinkers before? I do not. He wasn’t totally under the radar here. He could have been a closer, back when control was his calling card.
Here’s a guy I can actually speak to a little in terms of minor league experience. I watched Fausto several times while he was with Lake County, and he always threw hard (don’t know how hard); always looked like he’d be the type of guy to make an impact on the ML level.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
Do I remember the exact mph? No. But I remember that Fausto’s stuff was considered unhittable all the way back in Lake County.
He was a 93 mph guy until one summer when his stuff got noticeably harder. I remember the article you wrote about it and even where I was in my college computer lab when I read it, as said as that sounds.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
No one remembers this?!
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Aug 2, 2011 11:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I really, really think people are overvaluing these two. Go look at the best pitching prospects in the minors — Pomz and White do not, do not compare.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
C’mon, Jhon. I’ve seen White pitch. And so have hundreds of scouts, who all say they don’t rank among the best in the minors.
He should be in the conversation. They’re all still shaking out. I browsed the lists earlier and I’d take “our” guys over most of the ones ranked ahead of them prior to the season. The biggest question with White was whether he can be a starter, and then whether he can go deep into games reliably. White resoundingly answered the former; the book is still out on the latter question, but I have faith. White is one of those handful of guys who throws 96 mph strikes. With movement.
White started coming on early in the year, and he was still experimenting with new pitches while pitching in rotten weather behind lousy defenders (although Kipnis in particular would go on to make strides in this dept.). His fastball is money in the bank. I’ve waited 5 years for an arm like that to emerge in the system. And we found two!
I would’ve been in favor of trading one or the other, preferably White (on account of the specter of Adam Miller, even if it’s said that White’s isn’t that serious). Oh well. Should we later trade Ubaldo we’ll likely get one White equivalent back, assuming of course both health and some level of success. So it might not be the end of the world, but I think we’re more likely now than before to have to trade a guy like Ubaldo in 2013. That’s the price of being a marginally better contender today, I suppose.
If White hadn’t hurt his finger, this trade wouldn’t have happened, and we’re probably in much better shape in today’s standings. It’s funny how this happens. But then his finger was programed to fail, or not yet programmed not to fail. Within several years we’ll have a better idea, but at any rate he isn’t our guy anymore.
There isn’t much to follow in the minors these days. All of my attention turns to the top. I hope like everyone else that we can turn it around.
There isn’t much to follow in the minors these days. All of my attention turns to the top.
Right, well, isn’t that the point of this all anyway? Given that you do follow the minors more closely than many, it’s still nice to see that some big names have “graduated” this year to contribute to the team we ultimately care about most. I don’t understand lamenting that there’s nothing to watch in the minors, unless that lamentation is strictly regarding how the big league team will fare in the future.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 1, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t an all-out lament, just a source of ponderous concern.
“What if?” we don’t make the playoffs.
That’s why you have Ubaldo for the next 2.5 years at a minimum, unless the Indians decide to trade him while he still has value if they totally collapse – hopefully, that’s not the case.
Reading some thoughts from fans on other websites, I think many seem to forget or ignore the fact that this trade isn’t just for 2011, it’s for 2012 and 2013 as well. This isn’t a rental like Beltran, Kuroda, or Ludwick would have been – this is BOTH for now and the future.
Some find this trade “refreshing” – think if John Hart had employed this philosophy when he had a chance to acquire Pedro Martinez back before 1998 if he had included Jaret Wright in the deal? Hindsight, it’s very likely he would have. Without hindsight, I wonder if he would have done it if given a second chance WITHOUT knowing what would happen to Jaret Wright?
Just think – Antonetti did what John Hart didn’t. Granted, the 2011 Indians don’t mirror the 1998 team in terms of offense (though it wasn’t the juggernauts of 1995 or 1996) either, but that’s why I think many Indians’ fans find the trade refreshing – for once, we acquired the ace, and we control the ace at very reasonable cost for 2.5 years.
Tony Lastoria brought this up on his site – would the Indians be able to sign Jimenez to an extension if they work with him, say, this offseason? Jimenez wanted the Rockies to rework his contract either this past season or offseason, but the Rockies wouldn’t do it. If Jimenez is healthy and pitches well and finishes the year strong, would the Indians be able to extend that contract through, say, ‘15 (maybe with a player or club option for ’16) if they’re willing to increase the money he gets paid in 2012 and 2013?
Just a thought to consider.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 1, 2011 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alex White wasn’t on anyone’s top 50 list this year, and didn’t even make Law’s top 100! His third pitch is below-average and apparently severely hurts his finger. I always liked the guy, but to call him a top pitching prospect is absurd.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Aug 1, 2011 6:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m sorry – I’m calling BS to this. This – right here – is revisionist history. Every comment pre-season was how he was the real deal. He flew through the minors. There was a lot of hemming and hawing about how Law mucked up by not ranking him high enough. Commentary after his big league start was through the roof. Professional scouts were quoted as saying we should go ahead and lock him up then and there. When was the last time we had a pitcher fly through the minors like that? He projects to be a front of the rotation starter. Period.
I don’t know that we all freak out about his finger if we don’t have the experience of Miler. I personally think we have all overreacted to it. I’d rather the finger injury to a shoulder injury, wouldn’t you?
It does nothing to denigrate White – he did well in his time here. I wish him a speedy recovery and a long, productive Major League career. Pomeranz might project to be a better starter, but that should not take away anything from what White did.
We traded two front of the rotation prospects. They’re still in the injury nexus, there’s a lot to be said for taking Jimenez when the opportunity presented itself. I understand we don’t get him if we don’t trade both prospects. The Rockies wanted both for a reason – because they are top pitching prospects. Trying to minimize what we gave up to feel better about what we got is just bunk in my book and really pisses me off.
I just want to believe.
Trying to minimize what we gave up to feel better about what we got is just bunk in my book and really pisses me off.
We gave up a lot. We received a pitcher with significant past success in a difficult pitching environment who is currently in his prime. I hope this is one of those trades that works out well for both teams. What would be so terrible about BOTH teams winning this trade?
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
Excuse me for my skepticism, but could you provide some evidence of both a) that the concensus here was that White was projecting as a top of the rotation starter and b) that scouts were saying we should lock him up right here and now?
I’m trying to track down info on your b) question. I read it at the time – it really impressed me. After 20 minutes searching at work during my lunch, google and I are fighting and I haven’t found the quote yet. Barring that I didn’t dream reading an article on White, I did read it somewhere (I thought it was a Pluto-type commentary). I’ll try and track it down tonight from home.
In quickly looking through LGT threads, etc. the only substantive thing I’ve come across is a offhanded comment by Adam stating “even if he doesn’t project to a front-end starter” – so I’ll continue searching for info on this at home as well. My impression had been that we were looking at a potential rotation in 2013ish of Pomeranz (as the future #1), accompanied by Masterson (providing his splits continued the improvement), White, Carrasco, and then Tomlin/Rondon/Carmona/etc.
I just want to believe.
Maybe I am projecting my own belief, but I’ve been viewing Pomeranz as more of a middle rotation guy with a small chance to become an ace if he really developed a third pitch.
That said, the whole thing with ranking prospects and even current MLB players based on an ideal rotation is a bit strange. Masterson has gone from projected reliever to an ace now? That could easily change next year.
Bottom line is I view Ubaldo as a front of the rotation guy now, and was hoping that Pomeranz could become that in the future.
Not to start a big thing – but I’m kinda holding my breath on Masterson not regressing a notch or two. Speaking of projecting, maybe that 2013ish rotation was solely in my head. Meh – doesn’t matter now, does it?
I just want to believe.
There was ONE scout who said something like, “They shoud lock him up to a long-term deal right now.” This was widely viewed as a very stupid remark, although more for business reasons than scouting reasons. Still, the view around here, I think, was that the quote said more about the scout than it did about White.
by Jay on Aug 2, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I always love looking back on the Baseball America projected lineups. Not counting this past year, here’s what the rotations were supposed to look like from the last 3 prospect lists (not counting this past year):
2011
Sabathia
Carmona
Miller
Lofgren
Laffey
2012
Lee
Carmona
de la Cruz
Huff
House
2013
Hagadone
Knapp
Rondon
Masterson
Carrasco
Obviously projecting 3 years into the future like BA does is more difficult, but I wouldn’t be surprised if all but 1 or 2 of the players you listed above are organizational filler or Bryan Bullington by 2013.
It’s awesome that Lee didn’t make the 2011 list (post-2007) but did make the 2012 list. Evidently, de la Cruz and House are about to have some kind of INCREDIBLE stint in winter ball.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I browsed the lists earlier and I’d take "our" guys over most of the ones ranked ahead of them prior to the season
Of course you would. That’s the nature of not being objective. We wanted the scouts to be wrong (to some extent) so fervently that, in some of our minds, they’ve become something they aren’t. Jimenez is the the best case scenario for either of these guys. And now we have him.
Formerly fwembt
Right. This is very similar to the power rankings arguments fans always have. They always think their team is ranked too low and they are better than the 4 or 5 teams ranked above them. That’s the nature of fanhood; it’s hard to be objective about our own team and our own players. I trust the views of people who have seen all the top players pitch and don’t have an affiliation for any team over fans who have seen their own players many times but know very little about anyone else.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 1, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t it actually critical to not just see the Indians guys pitch, but also to have seen Shelby Miller, Matt Moore, Arodys Vizcaino, Julio Tehran, etc, all multiple times? Isn’t that why scout guys, like Goldstein and Law, are valued—because they can access more people who’ve seen more guys, plus bring a contextual understanding of other pitching prospects over the last 15 years that they watched closely??
I’m having a hard time believing that a guy with 3 games started at the AA level, despite his short time as a pro ball player, is no longer just a prospect.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 31, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pomeranz is highly regarded, certainly, but he’s STILL a prospect.
If Pomeranz had one weakness I know of (besides John Sickels mentioning that his command will sometimes elude him for a bit), it’s that Pomeranz would sometimes lose his focus for a little bit if something happened on the field or if someone got a hit, then it might take him a little bit to get refocused again.
It wasn’t really a problem at High-A too much (he had most of his trouble with Myrtle Beach – I think they’re now Texas’ affiliate after being Atlanta’s for many years), but as he progresses up the ladder, that is something he’ll need to work on.
The problem sounds a little similar to Carrasco’s, although Carrasco’s was, and is, much more extreme, but I have heard that also addressed to a small degree with Pomeranz. So, case in point, Pomeranz is NOT a finished product and is not a guarantee to help out this rotation, certainly not in 2011. He was not ready for the Majors at this point, no matter how much he dominated High Class A (remember that Joe Gardner dominated High-A too with impressive numbers in 2010, and then hit a wall in AA in 2011; while Pomeranz has better stuff and is off to a better start, Pomeranz is still not ready for the Majors right now, and likely won’t be until some time in 2012, and really not ready to establish himself and dominate the MLs until the 2013 season at the earliest, the purported last year of our current contention window).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
You want to declare Pomeranz and White “no longer prospects”? Wow, man. For Pomz especially, that seems way overboard. And yes, White may have been starting now, but he isn’t. You can’t count “would be,” he still needs actual starts to prove himself. He still needs to develop better secondary pitches. And you think Pomeranz should be starting for the major league team, when he still can barely get through five innings in AA? No way. He’d be more inefficient and probably just as hittable as Carrasco and Carmona.
Remember the Yankees’ untouchables, Hughes and Chamberlain, in ’07? Those guys were farther along than White and Pomeranz are, and look at them now.
Sure, they’re great prospects and it hurts to lose them. I was thinking White + Pomz was too much, prior to the trade. But looking at it now, we got a proven, excellent pitcher on a great contract. I’m alright with this, and a little giddy.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
With so many people in the baseball realm clamoring for him to be made a reliever, what are the chances that White actually becomes a reliever for the Rox?
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I’d bet there is a good chance he pitches in the bullpen the rest of this season, but I’d imagine they try him in the rotation next spring though.
Let’s also not forget that the Rockies are banking on White developing an additional pitch (as we would have had him working on if he stayed here). Question is, will that ever work out, and if it does, how long will it take? Why should we wait when our windows are always jamming shut on us? Let the Rockies wait that out, and we’ll take Ubaldo.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Jul 31, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve heard that splitters can put extra pressure on the middle finger, and White’s best offspeed pitch is his splitter.
As Lastoria and others are speculating, that middle finger could have been the finishing touches to convince the Indians to go for this deal. Essentially, it might come down really to Pomeranz for Jimenez. White is NOT a sure thing at this point, both due to inexperience and questions about his health (remember that Adam Miller was supposed okay after the first finger problem in 2006, pitched for a while, even doing quite well in 2007, then the problems really started in 2008).
While Pomeranz would seem to not have health issues now, and most think his delivery is clean, he’s not a finished product, and likely wouldn’t be until late 2012-early 2013, our purported final year of contention. Jimenez is close to, if not, a finished product in late 2011, even having pitched in the postseason in 2007. Which would you rather have?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The points you are making don’t make sense. Of course Pomeranz is a prospect and pointing to a team that completely mishandles their pitching prospects as evidence otherwise does not help your cause. Their rushing has ruined both Rick Porcello and Andrew Miller. Don’t point out Verlander; he’s the exception that proves the rule since he will probably finish his career in the HOF.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Aug 1, 2011 6:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Tigers would have had Pomeranz in the rotation at the all-star break. So you are trading 2 starting pitchers for 1. That does not make sense.
Pomeranz is in his first full pro season and has gone over 5 IP only twice in 18 career starts, and has only done it once in 3 starts in AA. His full-season professional debut is a lot like Porcello’s, and Porcello did not reach the majors that year—he broke with the big league team entering his second year, something that would be a surprising and awesome development for Pomeranz, though also unlikely.
Bonderman, another comparison, did the same thing as Porcello—debuted in the majors to begin his 2nd full season, a point Pomeranz’s hasn’t reached. Bonderman averaged ~5.2 innings a start in his pro debut (Pom = 5.0 right now). And, when he did debut in the majors, Bonderman was not very good (5.56 ERA).
Verlander did pull the trick your talking about—debuted in the pros in July of his first full season. He was terrible (7.15 ERA) and made only two starts. He had been averaging ~6.0 IP per start in the minors.
For a contemporary example, compare Pomeranz’s game log to Jacob Turner. Turner is pitching much deeper—going about 6.2 IP in each start. He’s also debuting in the middle of his 2nd full pro season—later than Porcello and Bonderman had, and a year from now for Pomeranz. It may make sense intuitively that Pomeranz should be able to move faster, since he’s 2.5 years older than Turner but, in looking at the numbers, Turner appears the more developed pitcher—similar K/BB (Pomeranz K’s more but also BB’s more) and greater efficiency in terms of going deep into games. And, of course, Turner has typically been the more highly regarded prospect by scouts.
Zumaya debuted at the beginning of his 4th full season, something I can’t imagine is that unusual for high school draftees who debut as relievers (although Zumaya was a starter in the minors).
Alex White debuted approximately one month into his 2nd full pro season, so about a month behind when Bonderman and Porcello did, and ahead of when Turner did. Turner and White are both 2009 draftees and Turner just made the majors on Saturday.
These aren’t great points of comparison for a variety of reasons—maybe it’s more notable that the Tigers guys debuted when they did b/c they were HS draftees. However, developmentally, they all looked ahead of Pomeranz in terms of going deep in games. And, most damning to the idea of getting Pomeranz up for this season, is the fact that the only one brought up in his first full pro season, Justin Verlander, did not do well. And Justin Verlander has proven to be a generational talent, something Pomeranz has a <1% chance of being.
A long way of saying: I don’t think the Tigers would have Pomeranz in the majors now. It doesn’t fit their profile of promotion, nor does Pomeranz appear ready in terms of what may be the most critical aspect of making a jump like that—being able to go for at least 5 innings.
If you think Pomeranz would’ve been in their rotation at the break, I think you have to explain why Turner was not. Turner had spent all season in AA at that point, and was pitching at least as well as Pomeranz was, and he was a level up.
by afh4 on Aug 1, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
Now I want to know where Mike Leake fits in.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
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by JulioBernazard on Aug 1, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent research. I don’t think Pomeranz should be in the rotation this year. But I’m sure he could help in the pen in September and October. I’m thinking along the lines like what the Rays did with David Price. Have him start next year. Pomeranz minor league stats are much more dominant than David Price’s at the same time of their career, and it is generally agreed that Pomeranz’s fastball curve combo would play in the majors today as a reliever.
Another comparison is Chris Sale (drafted after Pomeranz). The white sox brought him to the big leagues the year he was drafted as a reliever. I’m not advocating that the tribe should have done this (actually I prefer the tribe’s approach), just saying that it was a possibility.
I’m not trying to be a jerk, but that’s not at all what you were asserting.
First:
If you’re point was that White and Pomeranz could today be major league relievers, well, ok. But that’s not anywhere near the same thing and is a path fraught with issues that can severely devalue a player—from sticking as a reliever (Sale and Neftali Feliz), to struggling as one (Aroldis Chapman and his 7.4 BB/9).
David Price is, to me, a bad comp for Pomeranz—he was unquestionably much better regarded by scouts (entering his first pro season BA’s #10 prospect and his second pro season as #2—Pomeranz will never sniff either of those numbers, I’d guess) and mowed through AA at first exposure, which he reached at about the same time Pomeranz did in his development curve. Price was so good in AA that he was in AAA by 8/13, something Pomeranz was not close to being on track for doing.
Second:
The Tigers would have had Pomeranz in the rotation at the all-star break. So you are trading 2 starting pitchers for 1. That does not make sense.
The thrust of your argument was that Pomeranz was, today, not a prospect but, instead, a major league starter. From what you’ve written here, it doesn’t seem you think that’s true, and that’s fine—big trades don’t always lead to clear heads. But that undermines your summary argument—the Indians did not trade two major league starting pitchers for one. They traded a player you think might be able to relieve and a almost major league starting pitcher on the DL for a major league starter with some troubling wrinkles. That’s something interesting to consider, something that we could try to hash out as a community, as opposed to just taking stances of two extremes.
Third:
Again, I’m not trying to pick on you or your points. I think there’s arguments that this is a poor trade for the Indians, and I think some of the most cogent ones center on Pomeranz’s value.
However, in the last few days, there has been a great deal of slapdash, knee-jerk reactions, comparisons, and analysis regarding a variety of Indians players. This isn’t something the mods or conscientious community members can afford to be comfortable with—we’ve got to work, as a community, to have some kind of standard of not just saying things and then either letting them go uncorrected or, when they are corrected, letting the terms of the discussion change rapidly in an attempt to forget that we, as a community, ever made the first mistake.
We can’t do that because it leads to uninteresting, poorly-informed discussion and if LGT doesn’t have interesting, thoughtful discussion, it doesn’t have anything.
by afh4 on Aug 1, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
In 2000, for example, the top six pitching prospects were Rick Ankiel(notes) (No. 1 overall), Ryan "The Little Unit" Anderson (No. 9), John Patterson (No. 10), Mark Mulder (No. 12), Kip Wells(notes) (No. 14) and Matt Riley (No. 15) – all ranked higher than Pomeranz and White. Ankiel forgot how to pitch, Anderson ended up in culinary school, Patterson threw his last pitch at age 29, Mulder threw his at 30, Wells gave up more than 1½ baserunners per inning in his career and Riley debuted at 19 and finished at 25.
I like this trade.
Let’s al take a breath and step back before we go all Lookout Landing here.
Nobody knows what Ubaldo has in store for us and nobody knows how White & Pomz will pan out.
Time will tell.
And, please, no “nobody” jokes…
Thanks. I just read a thousand comments for nothing. I could have been celebrating Fukudome to the Tribe with my peeps here in Tokyo.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Aug 1, 2011 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I went Sunday and sat straight behind the 3rd base photo bay which was full of Japanese photographers. Obviously this trade is getting a lot of attention over there, no?
It got me wondering what the storyline is. I told my wife it was probably along the lines of “he never should have left Japan” but maybe I am being influenced by the tragic Irabu story. What narrative are you seeing?
by PBH on Aug 1, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotta feed the maw of Japan’s five (that’s FIVE) daily sports newspapers, each with circulations of a million. Nikkan Sports, the largest, has a circulation of almost two million. Compare with the Wall Street Journal, 2.1 million and USA Today, the Wonderbread of newspapers, 1.8 million.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Aug 1, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I lived in Japan in the mid-90s and always got a kick out of the guys reading those on the trains. The sports part didn’t tickle me as much as near-porn photos of women on the accompanying pages.
Man does not live on bread alone.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Aug 1, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude would be reading a game story of the previous night’s Nippon Ham Fighters game while holding up a full page picture of a scantily clad lady in a compromising pose on the folded back page at eye level for all on the packed train to see!
by PBH on Aug 1, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand all of the naysayers concerns. Those thoughts have occurred to most, if not all of us.
But I personally like the deal as for once the Tribe finally used their assets to acquire something, and a potential #1 at that. For years I’ve watched the “prospects” slowly, and I do mean slowly, inch through the system. Usually they would flame out or become bit parts. However, had we dealt a few of them when they were still lighting it up in A+ or AA for established major leaguers, we might not have had to do complete rebuilds.
One thing that hasn’t been brought up a lot is Ubaldo’s contract, which is ridiculously team-friendly for a pitcher of his caliber:
2011: $2.8M
2012: $4.2M
2013: $5.75M Team Option
2014: $8.0M Team Option (for now – Jimenez can void it due to the trade)
And if Jimenez pitches well down the stretch, both sides would probably be interested in re-working the deal to keep Jimenez in Cleveland for a longer period.
At the beginning of the year, Gardner was 4th, right behind Jason Knapp, according to Sickels. But yeah, that’s just wrong now. Hagadone’s taken a big leap forward by improving his command (6.6 BB/9 last year, 2.5 this year – quite an improvement). Zach McAllister ought to be considered a better prospect by now, I would think, with his much better ERA and peripherals at a higher level than Gardner at roughly the same age. Same for Jeanmar Gomez, who may not be technically a prospect anymore (I don’t know), but practically, still is. I’d rate Judy, Putnam, and C.C. Lee higher than Gardner as well, though they’re relievers. Austin Adams might also be a better prospect than Gardner.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
I agree. Gardner had a great first season but hit a wall this year. He could end up doing well in AA for the Rox but that remains to be seen and I don’t think he has a ton of upside to begin with.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Why wouldn’t the Rockies want a guy with a plus sinkerball?
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
because thats the only plus he has? I guess the fact that he is a sinkerballer helps them more than us because of that ballpark, but he had bad #s this year and didn’t have the highest ceiling to begin with.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Nobody’s a better prospect than Gardner.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
by Matt Y. on Aug 1, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of ink spilled for not much insight. SI, how the mighty have fallen.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Aug 1, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
When a team trades away a seemingly untouchable player, like the 27-year-old Jimenez, there will always be lingering concerns that they “knew something” about that player’s health, conditioning, or disposition. However, the Rockies said they wouldn’t trade their ace unless they were blown away by the return, and in getting the Indians’ top three pitching prospects, Drew Pomeranz (who can’t officially be named as part of the trade until mid-August, but is the key player in the deal for Colorado), Alex White, and Joe Gardner, it’s reasonable to believe that they were indeed blown away. However, the most impressive thing about that return may have been Cleveland’s willingness to pay it. That is to say that while Pomeranz, White, and Gardner are all legitimate prospects, only Pomeranz projects as a potential star pitcher, and the odds of him becoming the ace that Jimenez has, early season struggles aside, remain long. However, losing those three pitchers sets the Indians’ organizational pitching depth back significantly.
The man wrote a paragraph that includes five sentences, three of which begin with the word “However.” I read it three times and have less idea what his argument is than when I started. I doubt he has any idea either.
The howevers are ugly. U-G-L-Y. Hate howevers, much prefer buts.
His problem besides the howevers is that he has a major parenthetical that is not clearly indicated as being one:
That is to say that while Pomeranz, White, and Gardner are all legitimate prospects, only Pomeranz projects as a potential star pitcher, and the odds of him becoming the ace that Jimenez has, early season struggles aside, remain long.
It’s a total aside that ruinuously breaks up the preceding and following sentences. Even if it were in parenthesis or separated by em dashes, it would be unnecessarily wordy and not really of any value to his argument.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 1, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I would not want to be a copy editor in 2011. It would seem that very, very few outlets use them any more.
by JulioBernazard on Aug 2, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Underpaid, underappreciated, and overworked. But I guess that’s just about everyone these days.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 2, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I think its hard to find a straight copyeditor post since editors are now expected to do that work on their own.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 2, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Just so you know, I’m not in journalism or publishing, so I don’t know. It just seems like writing is output much more quickly and sloppily in the past few years.
by JulioBernazard on Aug 2, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree entirely. Has everything to do with cutbacks in journalism.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 2, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Blogging has also had an impact. Everyone is a journalist or writer.
Now, I’m not a huge fan of the J-school approach (less emphasis on facts, more on narrative), but at least they could (mostly) teach someone how to string together coherent sentences. Now, with consumer-created and crowd-sourced materials, quality is bound to slip.
I doubt you’ll offend anyone here by blasting J-schools, and certainly not myself.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
But we’re talking about an article in a major national publication.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Will it be featured in the published version of SI, or is it just online filler? That could make a difference as to the quality of the writing.
It’s all “published.”
Are you sure that the print edition is more widely read than the online content?
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends on context. I suspect that the print version is read way more widely in bathrooms and doctor’s offices than the online counterpart.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do a fair amount of reading on my phone at this point. Very carefully, of course.
by Jay on Aug 4, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Noted: Never borrow Jay’s phone.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 4, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I learned how to string sentences together in high school, possibly earlier. I think you’ll find that just about all pro writers would say the same. We may learn a lot more about writing as young adults, but if you can’t even write a sentence at 18, it’s highly unlikely you’ll be a good writer at any age.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
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