Game 107: Red Sox 3, Indians 2
by Ryan on Aug 3, 2011 4:00 AM EDT
in Game Recaps
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David Huff holding his own versus the Red Sox, and leaving the game after 5.0 innings with the lead was a piece of very good fortune for the Indians , but that fortune was squandered by the bullpen, and indirectly by an offense that could score just two runs on the evening.
A couple long and difficult innings early in the game shortened Huff's outing. Jason Kipnis' error in the second led not only to an unearned run, but at least 10-15 extra pitches that might have taken the Indians left-hander through an additional inning. After the Kipnis error (which left runners on first and second with nobody out, Mike Aviles hit a ground-ball single to load the bases. Huff would recover to strike out the side, but he bounced his first strikeout, allowing the unearned run to score.
After his nice outing, Huff was rewarded with a ticket to Columbus, as the Indians needed to get Ubaldo Jimenez onto the 25-man roster. Carlos Carrasco will likely drop the appeal to his suspension after his start on Wednesday night, but with an off-day on Monday, the Indians won't need a sixth starter. Even if he doesn't pitch for the Indians the rest of the season, Huff has had a successful season, reinventing himself thanks to his new cutter in addition to a more livelier fastball. He started the season as perhaps the ninth or tenth starter on the depth chart, and he'll end it as the sixth.
The Indians scored their two runs via solo shots by their top two position prospects. Jason Kipnis homered in the first inning off Josh Beckett, his third home run in three days (the first time a Cleveland rookies accomplished the feat since Richie Sexson did it in 1998). In the fourth, Lonnie Chisenhall gave the Indians a 2-1 lead with his homer down the right field line. There were some other opportunities to score off Beckett, but the Indians left runners on second base in the second, third, and sixth innings. Michael Brantley left Ezequiel Carrera on second base in the seventh after Beckett had left, and the offense went in order in the eighth and ninth innings.
Rafael Perez came in for Huff to start the sixth inning, and gave up his first home run of the year to Kevin Youkilis, the first batter he faced, on a hung slider. The score remained tied until the ninth inning, when Vinnie Pestano gave up three straight singles to end the game.
This game was a missed opportunity, and the Indians can't afford them with their precarious position in the standings. Detroit beat Texas to gain a game on Cleveland, leaving the Indians three games out going into Wednesday's games.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Huff | .208 | Pestano | -.350 |
| Sipp | .177 | Santana | -.135 |
| Smith | .048 | Brantley | -.131 |
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Given our problem with accumulating innings, why are we not contemplating 6-man rotation?
OCab is no longer my bête noire.
Well, you want Masterson and Jimenez going every fifth day, and Carrasco/Tomlin can be given an extra day between starts with the 3 off-days in August. Right now there’s no need for a 6-man rotation, though I could see it in September with all the make-up games scheduled and just one off-day.
If it looks like we are going to run up against innings limitations on Carrasco or Tomlin I hope we get another look at Huff. He has been better than both of those guys in these few starts he’s had, and I’d love to see if he can keep it up. Plus, it’s not bad having a lefty around.
by MTF on Aug 3, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
This team is just an emotional roller coaster right now
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
The cars on a typical roller coaster are not self-powered. Instead, a standard full circuit coaster is pulled up with a chain or cable along the lift hill to the first peak of the coaster track. The potential energy accumulated by the rise in height is transferred to kinetic energy as the cars race down the first downward slope. Kinetic energy is then converted back into potential energy as the train moves up again to the second peak. This hill is necessarily lower, as some mechanical energy is lost to friction.
Isaac Newton was a hack.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Aug 3, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still haven’t seen a ton of any game that Huff has started, but it’s clear from reading Ryan above and seeing a few innings that his fastball is better. Earlier in the year, I had a couple of comments about it – here and here. The Fangraph numbers are pretty telling. His fastball value has turned around, and the plate discipline numbers have changed significantly.
Hey, it’s three starts, so I’m nowhere near ready to think that Huff can do this consistently. But at least he’s showing us that it might be possible.
And I assume this was covered completely in the game thread, but Todd Tichenor was an awful home plate umpire last night.
It’s a combination of three things: better velocity on his regular fastball, better command of the strike zone, and the new pitch. The good thing is that with a low-90s fastball, his margin for error is a lot wider than it’s been. I’m not ready to pronounce him a starter in next year’s rotation, but he’s viable again – something I didn’t think was possible at this time last year.
The other thing I noticed is that nothing about last night seemed unsustainable. His pitch count became inflated because of rough play behind him, but he remained composed and didn’t let it spiral. I liked what I saw.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
It sucks to lose this one, considering it feels like we should have won. But with the pitching match-up being what it was, this is probably one a lot of us were expecting to lose. I still like our match-ups for these next two games.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Great recap, but disagree: After those three starts (two of which against the Angels and Sox, arguably the two best teams in the AL) he’ll end the year better than 6th on the depth chart.
Right now, unless he presses the reset button and gets his emotional roller coaster under control, I dont expect CC to be able to handle the bright lights of a late season division clincher or post season start. Not saying Huff could, but i’m willing to admit he’s a possibility, vs CC as an improbability.
Shocked they’re sending him back down.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
Why? If Carrasco is really the head case that people here seem to think he is, then we need to save his option to burn in some future year when we might have to send him down early in the season. Huff’s option is already shot for this year. We could play the reliever shuffle, but it doesn’t do us any good to be down a guy in the pen against Boston. Huff is a victim of the numbers game and the fact that Jimenez must be activated today, at least according to what I’ve read. Keeping Carrasco’s option available for future use trumps Huff’s making a couple more August starts. Come September, he’ll be up as starter #6 anyway given the heavy workload of make-up games.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Aug 3, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you are jaded from 3 consecutive years of non-contending, roster development/managment baseball.
Its August and were in a playoff chase. We need our best 25 man out there, options be damned. Huff is pitching better than both Carrasco and Tomlin right now and we need to go with the hot hand.
Besides, unless I’m misunderstanding the rules, its not like Carrasco only has one option left anyways.
Jay reported when I asked earlier that Carrasco has one option left.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Aug 3, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Can you please either give me, or point me to, the more detailed explanation of his option situation.
Of course I do. I just wanted to understand why. I thought maybe Jay or someone had explained Carrasco’s situation in detail in another thread that I missed.
On second look though, it seems pretty clear cut that during both ’09 and ’10 he was both on the 40 man and pitched extensively in the minors.
That’s all it is. He was added to the 40-man after the 2008 season, spent parts of ‘09 and ’10 in the minors. That’s two options gone, one option remaining.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Carrasco has only one option. By allowing him to pitch, then take his suspension (during which, if I’m not mistaken, he can pitch in the minors), the Indians will essentially be allowed to send Carrasco on a tune-up in AAA without using his option. It’s the clear-cut move, if I’ve understood the context correctly.
I don’t think he can pitch in the minors during his suspension.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think its that the suspension goes for six days when he’s on the active roster. So if he gets optioned, then the suspension just waits for him to come back up.
No, I’m not jaded, but I am pragmatic. I have more perspective from understanding from this site how roster development and management work. We lost Brandon Phillips because the team screwed up roster management and I never want to lose a player of that caliber that way again.
I think roster management becomes more important, not less important if we want to extend our contention beyond this year into the next couple years, a message management clearly sent with the Ubaldo Jimenez trade.
Why should we burn either Tomlin’s or Carrasco’s option in August when we can expand the rosters on September 1? The upgrade in the team’s chance to win, if there is one, in Huff over Carrasco or Tomlin is so marginal that it’s not worth potentially losing either a serviceable 5th starter (Tomlin) or a guy with the upside to potentially be a #2/#3 (Carrasco). Finding serviceable starters is so hard that we shouldn’t screw with the options of any of them.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
by woodsmeister on Aug 3, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, fine. If you want to preserve the options on all SP then get creative.
The upgrade in the team’s chance to win, if there is one, in Huff over Carrasco or Tomlin is so marginal
You know what’s even more marginal? The difference that Hannahan is making right now on the team during his 2 defensive innings that he plays at the end of every 4-5 games. There’s a roster spot right there.
How bout DFA Durbin which the FO has probably come close to doing multiple times already this year? Have Carrasco or Tomlin or whoever pitch out of the bullpen for a few weeks until a more clear decision can be made.
In contrast to Gradysmanldy, for me, this decision actually IS about Huff. I too like Carrasco, particularly in the long run big picture. But right now, Huff is giving this team a good chance to win games that we sorely need. We have to find a way to keep him in the rotation.
I guess I’ll save more detailed discussion about Huff’s performance for the other thread.
You’re just not getting it. We have to activate Ubaldo TODAY. Carrasco has to start TODAY, and then he serves his suspension, during which we cannot fill his spot on the 25-man roster.
Tomlin started two days ago and should not pitch out of the bullpen TODAY. DFA-ing Durbin leaves us one short in the bullpen TODAY. Jettisoning Hannahan does not give us a veteran defensive replacement at 3b TODAY.
Huff can come back in 10 days. We might want him then. If so, he will have missed exactly one major league start. If you think that the one or two potential runs that Tomlin gives up more than Huff in that one start is worth burning a starting pitcher option for a year, then you are welcome to that opinion, but, like the front office, I’m having a hard time making the math work.
Is that URGENT enough for you? We have 5 pitchers for 5 spots. Our bullpen is fully staffed. TODAY. You’re complaining about what is, at best, a marginal upgrade. And, to be honest, in all likelihood Texas is likely to batter the bejeezus out of whoever throws that next start in Arlington, whether it’s Huff, Carrasco or Talbot.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
Ok. I hear you. I promise I’m not crazy or delusional. I just would prefer more priority be put on keeping Huff in the rotation than you would and I am exploring all options. Given the responsibilty of the decision, I most likely would have made the same one considering all the roster issues.
I still think you are placing too much importance on having a “veteran defensive replacement at 3b”.
- Chisenhall has not shown much if any deficiency at 3rd to my knowledge in the first place.
- The team has already shown itself willing to play Donald at 3rd.
- Since when is a 1 position defensive replacement valuable enough for a 25 man spot anyways?
Is it that difficult to imagine us getting through Carrasco’s suspension with only 6 men in the bullpen or 3 guys on the bench? Hannahan has already been relegated to injury insurance as it is.
Clearly we should have kept Marte for these situations to fill both the last man on bench and in the bullpen.
by TKilbane on Aug 3, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think sending down Hannahan is entirely reasonable. I haven’t checked his option status but I assume he has none, but I also assume he wouldn’t be claimed (perhaps that’s rash, though).
Donald can back up 3B more than adequately. It leaves you vulnerable to injuries to two non-1B infielders in the same game but, well, c’mon.
However, this is baseball, which moves at a glacial pace in terms of thinking. I suspect the Indians didn’t seriously consider this, because Acta would never consent to it. Managers really, really like to feel traditionally staffed.
These are 4 things I believe, in no particular order.
1. David Huff deserves fairly regular starts at the ML level this year to both maximize the peak (if it is a peak) and see if he returns to being David Huff.
2. While there is a strong chance Hannahan passes through waivers, I fear losing him is too risky.
3. There is no reason Huff can’t spend the next 10 days in the minors and then pitch again in the majors. Barsham produced a great plan that would allow this to happen – a pitcher (Tomlin or CC) to go down to AAA around the 13th and be back at roster expansion without burning an option.
4. If both Tomlin and CC have strong next outings, there is no reason to execute Barsham’s plan – just wait until rosters expand for Huff to return.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Especially given the glove work he’s shown this year. He would be a significant upgrade to many teams for that late inning defensive replacement spot.
@grantgw - sports and Cleveland and Columbus stuff
Yeah, but it’s still 50 points higher than Hannahan’s current OPS and 150 points higher than his OPS the past 3 months.
He may get claimed, but in terms of wins, would we really miss him?
No. Hannahan can go for me.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 4, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t using a roster spot on a 1B/3B defensive replacement a pretty bad idea?
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 4, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure it’s been established that missing a start results in a total of three fewer starts.
by YoDaddyWags on Aug 3, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, no, no. There is no need to waste that option because of the possible upgrade of a few David Huff starts vs. a few Carlos Carrasco starts.
Also has to be noted that Carrasco has had more success at the Major League level this year than Huff ever has.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d say, right at this moment, they are equally like to succeed this year or next. Carrasco had a great stretch, but when he has come undone, it’s been like an atomic explosion. Experienced success when initially called up, but clearly needed refinement.
I’m meh on Carlos’ ceiling, and intrigued (currently) about Huffs.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Aug 3, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s highly unlikely. Even given Carrasco’s recent struggles his FIP this year is 4.33 and xFIP 3.96, as a 24 year old, in his first full season. His K:BB is 2.16, K rate 6.12/9.
David Huff, as a 24 year old, posted a 4.69 FIP and 5.03 xFIP. As a 25 year old, 5.83 FIP and 5.46 xFIP.
We all need to calm down about three starts. If you go back one month Carrasco’s numbers for a first year pitcher are excellent. David Huff may have turned the corner, but given their minor league pedigrees and success so far in the major leagues it is very improbable he will ever become as good as Carlos Carrasco is this year.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Huff’s K and K:BB rates:
2009: 4.56, 1.59.
2010: 4.18, 1.09.
There is simply no logical reason to assume that Huff will be a better pitcher than Carrasco.
Lou Marson fan.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Ehhh, looking at his minor league numbers for THIS YEAR, you may be right. His stats this year don’t really show a huge improvement from any other year in the minors, and aren’t eye popping. His WHIP in the minors suggests that guys are going to hit him, anywhere.
I guess this argument for me is more about Carrasco’s inability to get his head straight than it is about Huff. It’s possible that Carrasco could chill out and get his head together (Sabathia took some time to get a handle on the reins) but im just frustrated with the timing of his recent wheels coming off.
Good points.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Aug 3, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Huff’s ceiling isn’t what intrigues me—it’s his ability (so far) to avoid giving up crooked numbers in Carrascian fashion.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
You know who else showed that ability, and in fact showed it for a longer run? Carlos Carrasco, a month ago.
by afh4 on Aug 3, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, you’ve got that backward. Huff can’t match CC’s ceiling.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You gotta take Carrasco over Tomlin any day of the week. CC is far more talented.
by jhon on Aug 3, 2011 10:34 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This one is definitely on the offense. You need to score > 2 runs in Fenway.
"I want to be playing at the end of October or the end of September -- not just at the beginning of April." —Grady
They were going up against a SP who’s excellent in Fenway.
by JulioBernazard on Aug 3, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t seen Nickjs21 around since before the trade.
"By being the manager and just playing whoever I want." - Acta on how he would choose to split playing time between Kearns and Buck.
He prefers Denver.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 3, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Huff should have come out for the 6th. Is 102 pitches that high ( they just traded two top pitching prospects for a pitcher who topped 120 pitches 9 times in 2010 )? He would’ve been facing Youkilis who he struck out twice and two lefties in Ortiz and Crawford. Too quick of a hook.
Huff looks real good to me and with some average defense would have shut down the Red Sox in Fenway. If your trying to win this division Huff stays in the rotation. He’s that much better now, in my opinion.
Serious risk that he blows up in the sixth and we’re having the reverse of this conversation. Using 102 pitches to get through 15 outs is rarely a positive indicator, no matter how good your line is.
Trombone/creamy/soda.
Being the pitcher who gets used in the 6th inning, also rarely a positive indicator.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
And this is the heart of why people are always criticizing managers for “trying to get the starter the W.” It’s a fundamental failure to understand that you’d rather take your chances with a starter on a so-so day than with your fifth-inning reliever.
The pitch count itself is not the driving factor…it’s 102 pitches in just five innings. Teams consider that to be working pretty hard, through some tough innings. If he had 102 through 6 or 7, there would have been a much greater likelihood that he would have started the next inning.
Did you watch the game? They weren’t tough innings created by him? They were 1-2 tough innings created by his defense. That he made it through 5 was a testament to how he performed in the second half of his start.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Shoot the messenger much, do you? I’m just saying that’s the common practice among managers, and Acta practices it as well. I’m trying to explain why he was taken out, not spouting out my opinion.
Doesn’t matter to them who created the long innings…only that they existed.
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