Game 149: Indians 10, Twins 4
by Ryan on Sep 17, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
Email
Print
This was a nice all-around game.
The Indians jumped on Minnesota starter Anthony Swarzak for seven early runs, and cruised for an easy victory. Travis Hafner got things going with a two-run single in the first inning, and then the Indians would score six off Swarzak and Lester Oliveros to blow the game open. The Indians would collect 14 hits and walked four times on the afternoon.
Carlos Santana hit his 25th home run today, which tied the Indians season record for a switch-hitter (Victor Martinez, 2007). He's quietly had an outstanding hitting season, offsetting a low batting average with 91 walks and 58 extra-base hits.
Jeanmar Gomez had a relatively easy day, throwing 98 pitches before leaving with two outs in the sixth inning. After throwing a pitch, he attempted to field a grounder by the mound, and then immediately came up hobbling. He left the game, walking gingerly off the field. Jordan Bastian is reporting that the injury was to Gomez's right knee, but it's not serious, and he'll make his next start.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Hafner | .163 | Judy | -.033 |
| Kipnis | .136 | R. Perez | -.031 |
| Gomez | .094 | LaPorta | -.011 |
55 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Nice game. This team is transitioning into “Next Season” frame of mind rather well, and we are still in second place. Nice to see Chiz and Kipnis make their presence known as we head into 2012.
Let’s see how Manny rattles some cages as we close out the season. This team needs to arrive in Goodyear with a readiness to start the year as it did this past season.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Sep 17, 2011 7:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Still alive in the wild card for another day.
by palcal on Sep 17, 2011 8:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Santana is a beast, but he’s a bit of a conundrum on this team that already has a superior defensive catcher and doesn’t want our best bat degraded by catching every day (which I fully understand, see Martinez, Vic).
The solution that the staff has arrived at, switching him between C and 1B ends up giving us sub-maximal defensive value at two positions and an inconsistent use of the roster. He’s not our best catcher and he’ll never be an everyday 1B.
That’s why I think Santana should be traded to get a batter that can replace him in the lineup and be an everyday player at 1B or OF. Other teams will be willing to do what we won’t – stick him behind the plate every day.
Ideally we’d get back a young, contractually equivalent 1B along the lines of Hosmer, Trumbo, Freeman, perhaps Smoak.
Prospective trade: Santana, LaPorta, Gomez and one of RPerez, Hagadone, Smith, Sipp to KC for Eric Hosmer and Lorenzo Cain.
KC gets cheap ML pitching and a slight upgrade on offense, we get a wash on offense, a big hike defensively, outfield depth, and replace the pitching from within. With the additional benefit of everyday roles assigned.
As much as I like Santana, he’s just not a good fit on this club that desperately needs offense to the point where he doesn’t have an everyday position to concentrate on. Trade him to a team that wants him to be the everyday catcher, and get a set lineup in return.
I think the team is fully ready to accept his shortcomings defensively as a catcher once the 1B problem is solved. I’ll admit, though, that keeping his innings down behind the dish early in his career eases my worries a little.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Arguably our best hitter is not getting traded. No way. And yes, he’s a good fit because he’s a great player.
by johnf34 on Sep 17, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He is our best hitter, that’s why he hasn’t been a full time catcher this season. And next season.
But he’s not a great player on this team because he doesn’t have a set position – he’s our best bat, but our second best catcher and a few ticks down at 1B.
Trade him for equivalent production at 1B, for someone who actually fits there, and let Marson be the full-time catcher. The team will be better off for it going forward.
They were pretty successful in making Victor a passable catcher. Santana is physically talented enough to be a catcher—I recall him throwing lasers when he first came up in 2010. It’s worth molding him into one.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 17, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the whole point, they’re not willing to pencil him in as everyday catcher as long as the lineup revolves around him. And I fully understand that – Vic is the cautionary tale – do not make your best hitter catch every day, because soon enuf he won’t be your best hitter anymore.
Your points are all valid, but there’s no reason to trade your best, youngest and cheapest player just because he doesn’t fit some perfect mold of a 1B/C that you want. To me, you’re overreacting to some of his flaws.
I don’t consider Santana a flawed player, that’s why I think he’s such a valuable trade piece, pretty much the only one we can afford to trade and make our team better – on another team he would be the everyday catcher and not be expected to carry the team offensively.
I’m talking about the overall makeup of this team. Having Santana bounce between 1B and C doesn’t get the most out of either position. If he was 6 foot 3, threw left handed with a plus glove at first I’d put him there and leave him there.
But he’s not – he’s a catcher, and we have a better defensive catcher. If we could trade him for a real 1B who can match his production, or come close to it, I think we’d be a better team.
As far as cheap, the guys I mentioned above are at the same pay scale.
First off I would never make a trade with the Royals of this magnitude and I doubt they would give up Hosmer. Second, why not just play out 2012 with Santana at 1B/C and in 2013 that can be C/1B/DH? It’s a little premature to be so willing to pull off a deal like this without trying free agency or even some of the other scraps we have in the minors to see if they catch on.
by The Grimace on Sep 17, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Santana is hardly a problem on the team. Let’s fix the other things before we ruin the most likely player on our team to make multiple All-Star games.
I think you’re not getting the basic idea – I’m not dissing Santana. I’m saying the team has problems, and Carlos is the only valuable chip that we have left (that we can afford to give up) to address those problems.
He’s valuable enuf to bring back someone who also will be the best bat on the team and hold down a single position. Marson steps in as full time catcher, and we have a more effective everyday lineup going forward.
Because his bat has such potential he becomes the center of the lineup on this offense-challenged team, the brass is unwilling to play him everyday at his natural position.
I was under the impression that Santana has been playing first base because Marson’s defense outweighs the LaPorta’s offense
Okay, here is a list of regulars at first base, sorted by WAR.
Santana is at 3.6 WAR, but he probably will be projected for 4.5 WAR for the next full season.
Anyway, you tell me — which of the other guys are we trading him for?
I haven’t really seen that much of Trumbo to understand the love and I don’t see it in the stats either. He looks like a LaPorta that is 348 days younger. No thanks.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Dismissing anyone with 28 HR as anything even vaguely resembling Matt LaPorta is a bit much.
Formerly fwembt, now co-moderator of Banners on the Parkway
I have to admit, I can kind of see the argument for Hosmer or Freeman. Trumbo makes no sense at all.
Why are you so scared of versatility? What evidence do you have that switching him back and forth is hurting the team’s production?
What I hear you saying from a value standpoint is “let’s trade a great hitting 1st baseman with versatility for a great hitting 1st baseman with no versatility.” That just doesn’t make sense. Even if we did attempt to trade him to a team that would use him as an everyday catcher, we would need to receive a 1st baseman that produces way more than him offensively to make up for the positional difference.
If LaPorta had panned out, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. Santana playing more 1st base has a lot more to do with it having been the best short term solution for the team than a long term denouncement of our willingness to play him as an everyday catcher in my opinion.
Santana is not a great-hitting first baseman.
He’s got 17.5 batting runs above average, per Fangraphs. That’s about 27 behind Adrian Gonzalez and Prince Fielder, and 37 behind FatCab and Votto. In a normal season, Pujols racks up 65.
Those are “great-hitting” first basemen. Santana is tied for 10th. That’s a bit above average, you might say solidly above average, but certainly not great.
So I believe mcrose’s point is valid in the sense that a first baseman of equivalent overall value might be a more efficient piece on our roster. The problem with his point is that the market is not as large and flexible as we might like it to be, so making that kind of a swap actually is quite unlikely.
You know what happens when you try trade for a guy who kind of looks like a core player if you squint but is flawed enough for the other club to let go of him? Josh Barfield. Alex Rios.
Yes, it is unlikely. But there are players out there we could target, and Carlos would be a very tempting acquisition for some teams, especially if the deal were sweetened with some immediate pitching help.
I’m sure there’ll be plenty of off-season discussions about it, the main thing is that I think the team has some big holes to fill offensively going into our “window” the next couple years w/ Ubaldo, and since we traded our top two pitching prospects, and Kip and Chiz are effectively untouchable, Carlos is our only big chip that we can actually use to make the team better.
Santana is not really a first baseman. They are putting him there so he doesn’t have to catch every day and there’s no place else to put him. Just because we play him there half the time doesn’t mean anyone else will.
Like I said, if Santana was 6-3, threw left handed, etc. He would already be our starting 1B and would stay there for the rest of his career.
And if LaPorta turned out to be a middle of the order 1B who matched or exceeded Carlos’ production, we wouldn’t be discussing this scenario? Gee, I suppose not.
They are putting him there so he doesn’t have to catch every day
This is where I disagree. I think they’re putting him there because Marson is a better player right now than LaPorta, so they would rather have him in the lineup.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Sep 18, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
LaPorta tanking and being sent down certainly led to more Carlos time at 1B, but it had been happening since the beginning of the year, trying to keep Santana fresh as he was immediately pencilled into the 4 spot.
Don’t you recall the pre-season interviews? That was the modus operandi going into this season, and it will be going into next as well.
Santana started 8 of the first 50 games at 1B; 23 of the next 50; and 26 of the last 50.
by YoDaddyWags on Sep 18, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
You overvalue Marson, I think, who has made gains over last season but who is not yet a major league hitter, and undervalue Santana, whose walk rate, ISO and switch-hitting ability put him ahead of the other first-basemen you mention. That Santana played 1B as much as he did and didn’t DH when not catching is certainly because LaPorta was lousy. Victor Martinez caught over 1,000 innings in his first four full seasons, during which his offense did not degrade; when he came back from the elbow injury, he was once again a hitter with an OPS+ in the 120s, his norm. The murkiness of the “sub-maximal defensive value at two positions and an inconsistent use of the roster” reasoning has something very Colavito-for-Kuenn about it, especially when you feel inclined to ‘sweeten the deal’ by throwing in somebody from the bullpen.
“the other first basemen” – I guess that’s it, I don’t consider Santana a true first baseman. I’d trade him for Hosmer straight up right now and we’d have a better team next year.
Now, I don’t think KC would do that, hence the “sweetening”.
You’d fill one hole and create two, and I don’t think Cleveland can’t afford that kind of inefficiency.
Don’t follow that. Hosmer replaces Santana’s production, and two positions are strengthened defensively.
Also, I don’t buy that Hosmer is in some way a sure-fire upgrade defensively over Santana at first. This was a bit of a bumpy year for Santana sure, but this was his first time playing 1B professionally and he has learned a lot.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
He would quite definitely be an upgrade defensively. Heck, by reach alone he’s a lot better at the primary responsibility at 1b, catching the ball with your foot on the bag.
I’m less sanguine than you about Marson as starting catcher. Plus you’ve given up somebody significant off the pitching staff, I’d bet, to get either 21-year-old Hosmer or 21-year-old Freeman. If the deal were for 25-year-old Trumbo, I’d be asking the Angels to sweeten the pot.
Just a difference of opinion. I think Hosmer can equal Carlos’ considerable production, and is and will be a better first baseman.
I’ll probably leave it there, just want to emphasize that I have nothing against Santana, just that he is caught somewhat in between on this team, and he’s the only guy I can see that can be used to make a significant trade this offseason.
And yeah, while I’ve been trying to show that such a move would be justifiable in this thread, I don’t think it’ll happen.
No rush to trade Santana. Can’t count on Marson to not be a black hole just yet. Don’t love the other young 1b out there. We suddenly need pitching: wouldn’t give up Santana and Gomez without a good pitcher coming back. A short-leashed 1B platoon (incl LaPorta) is probably our best bet.
But maybe next year.
by jhon on Sep 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Can’t trade him yet because CLE.com will think it a good thing. “He’s hitting .238!”. You can’t move him until and unless your guaranteed an apoplectic cacophony of “Dolan is Cheap!”
by stuart dean on Sep 18, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Let's Go Tribe
Related FanShots on Let's Go Tribe
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
- The Juice: Mesoraco’s grand slam helps Reds complete four-game sweep of Braves
- Please hold: Indians’ Joe Smith jumps the gun on relief appearance
- Local radio host honors Cubs’ Tony Campana with parody song
- Roy Halladay bobblehead with glove on wrong hand selling on MLB.com
