Woah
Yanks trade Montero for Pineda and sign Kuroda
4 months ago
APV
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I do not like this. I think Pineda could be a stud and I’m not sure if Montero can stay behind the plate. If he doesn’t, is his bat really that valuable?
Pineda looks impressive and the k, bb, and hr numbers are good, but he had a .235 BABIP and a 103 ERA+. I’m not completely sold yet, I guess.
I mean, I guess I just have no idea where this comes from, and what context I’m supposed to take it in. I’d take the guy with 900 innings of 123 ERA+ over the guy with 170 innings of 103 ERA+ the majority of the time, but I guess this could be one of the situations where you could argue otherwise. And in the second half of the season, Pineda put up an ERA almost exactly what Jimenez had in Cleveland, and Pineda was in the better park for pitchers. I’m not going to say the kid isn’t good, a 103 ERA+ at 22 is impressive, but like I said, I’m not completely sold yet.
by 7foot3 on Jan 14, 2012 3:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sleeping well tonight: Theo Epstein. Not sleeping well tonight: Ben Cherington.
by APV on Jan 13, 2012 9:58 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Sleeping well tonight: Oswalt
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 14, 2012 7:17 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure what I think about this. Seattle needed an impact bat and have plenty of pitching depth in the organization. I like Campos more than Noesi but Campos is still far away. I know Pineda has the major league experience, but with only two pitches he could still end up in the pen and hitting prospects are always a surer bet than pitching. I’m conflicted, but I think I like it for both teams.
“have plenty of pitching depth in the organization”
Seems like famous last words to me.
by Jay on Jan 14, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I posted this on LL, but there are reports that the Yankees asked for Felix and offered Montero, Betances and Banuelos and the Mariners said no and countered with Pineda …
Now, is it just me or is the Felix deal much better for the Mariners? Consider Felix is super expensive and leaving after 2014, probably for the Yankees …
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 13, 2012 10:01 PM EST reply actions
They pretty much shot me down and told me to use a subject line, so, F that.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 13, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
And it’s not like the Mariners are going to contend in that time frame in that division …
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you. And it seems symptomatic of a GM who is a great evaluator but doesn’t understand how to build a complete roster over multiple years.
I’ve been looking at both LL and PSA quite a bit in the last 24 hours and it shocked me to see, for the most part, both sets of fans offering utter tripe.
The Felix fan worship on LL was embarrassing.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah over here we only have Pomeranz worship. We’re so much better.
by Cols714 on Jan 14, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ladies and gentlemen… Nancy Willingham
by westbrook on Jan 14, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just don’t think we should assert how much smarter we are over at LGT than LL. It’s not like we’ve never said anything embarrassing.
There’s a grain of truth to this, though. Every fan base over-values its own guys (except for the few that are hated for borderline illogical reasons). We’ve been in love with guys over here and been proven wrong before. The natural optimism of any fan plus a dash of homerism can lead to some assertions that look goofy in retrospect, or right away when viewed from the outside. It happens.
With that said, I’ve not been to LL to see how they worship Felix.
However, Cliff Lee worship is all right.
by woodsmeister on Jan 14, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Who other than Chuck worshiped Cliff Lee?
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll say, if you didn’t “worship” (worship = like a lot) Cliff Lee, you should’ve. Interesting guy, wanted to stay-put, phenomenal talent. The Cliff Lee non-extension was costly on a similar magnitude to the Hafner extension.
Purely based on sales, there is a 90% chance that you own at least two NIckelback albums.
Um…any claim about mandatory worship of Cliff Lee has to provide me with a big explanation for his no-show in 2007…a year Cleveland could have and should have won the World Series. I like the guy, but 2007 is something of a disfiguring scar for me in his record.
A big fat This.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 15, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Not talking about mandatory worship, in fact the use of the word “worship” when talking about another person makes me sad. So let’s say “like a lot.”
Didn’t say mandatory, but we shouldn’t be running away from saying “I really really liked Cliff Lee.”
The idea of a player having a bad year then coming back so hard that he won the Cy Young and wanted to extend with the club leaves a scar with you? That’s also depressing.
Purely based on sales, there is a 90% chance that you own at least two NIckelback albums.
No offense, but that’s silly.
First and foremost, it’s not Lee’s fault that the Indians blew a 3-1 series lead and let the Red Sox come back and win four straight games. Not to mention, Lee wasn’t even on the playoff roster that year. It seems like a stretch to harbor ill will towards a player who was injured for much of the year and didn’t play well when he wasn’t. If that’s the standard you’re laying down, I really hate Josh Barfield, who wasn’t injured in 2007 but did really suck.
Second, and this is more of a response to Joeee above, Cliff Lee wasn’t even that good of a pitcher until 2008. His FIP from 2003 to 2007 were : 4.35; 4.97; 3.79, 4.40, and 6.29. Prior to the 2008 season I remember conversations about DFA’ing Lee or at least trying to trade him away for a bag of peanuts.
By the time he finally pieced it together in 2008, Lee was already 29 going on 30 years old. And let’s be honest most people figured 2008 was a fluke. By the time Lee proved he had finally pieced it together as a 29/30 year old he was out of Cleveland’s price range.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 15, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly am glad I was not the guy with my finger on the button. But recognizing true performance and weighing the risk/reward of a guy’s value and durability is the 24/7, this-is-the-only-thing-we-do for 30 GMs. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss and hindsight is 20/20. This was a big miss. Do you think it’s impossible to have gotten that one right? I think it’s difficult, but as we’ve established, that’s why those 30 are where they are.
Purely based on sales, there is a 90% chance that you own at least two NIckelback albums.
Your reasoning is based on an infinitely regressive standard that wouldn’t allow any GM anywhere to ever make a mistake.Being a subject matter expert doesn’t make you infallible. Being a GM doesn’t give you magical powers. Being the best hitter in baseball doesn’t mean you always come up with the big hit when your team needs it.
But, prose aside, do we even have enough information to justify your blame? Coming off of a CY Young winning career year, Lee had a good amount of leverage in negotiations. Do you know how much money Lee was asking for? I don’t. For all we know Lee’s asking price could’ve been outside of the Indians price range even prior to his 2009 season.
An even if Lee’s asking price was “reasonable” say, 5 years/$55 million dollars, if you’re the Indians do you give Lee that kind of money? In retrospect, it’s an enthusiastic yes, but at the time just one season removed from the injury plagued embarrassment that was his 2007 season.
If you’re going to criticize the Indians front office for anything It should be trading Lee, and Victor, in a depressed market.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 15, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
You can’t give Lee even the “reasonable money” under those conditions:
• We’re not contending the following season (2010) and may face an uphill battle the year after (2011). Question marks at best.
- The present-day value of almost any pitcher 3+ seasons into the future is something close to zero.
- The guy’s resume has plenty of injuries on it already.
Thus, you’re paying $55 million in the hopes that he’ll be healthy and the team will contend in the third year of the deal (2012), plus a wish and a prayer that you’ll contend in the second year (2011) and/or he’ll be healthy in years four and five. It’s a dumb deal, and you can’t do it if you’re not a top-three team in revenue.
Oh, wait, NM, thought you were replying to me.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I like the trade for the Mariners, especially since they have nice pitching coming up from the minors.
Don't be afraid to fight for your rights!
by IBHMC on Jan 13, 2012 10:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Who do you think won the trade?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
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I think it’s one of those rare trades that could be a win-win for both teams. Unless injuries play a part in these players future.
Well, yes, injuries.
If Pineda stays healthy I think the Yankees will “win” this one, and I’m a very big Montero (and Noesi actually) fan.
Ask again in 2017.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
Should we be looking at Phil Hughes?
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 2:36 AM EST reply actions
I’d stick him in the rotation and send Tomlin down
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Not out of options
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
READ THIS ANTONETTI
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Nice trade for each team, I suppose. Am I the only one who wonders how this trade will make Jeter and ARod 3 years younger? It will help the Yankees take the East, but I don’t know how it makes them much better in October.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jan 14, 2012 11:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Seattle if they make the Felix trade:
Pineda (5 years)
Montero (6 years)
Banuelos (6 years)
Betances (6 years)
Campos (6 years)
Plus ~$60 million from Felix contract.
Seattle with Pineda trade:
Felix (for three years at ~$20 mil/per)
Montero (5 years)
Noesi (5 years)
I just don’t get why they’d do Pineda and not Felix. It honestly baffles me.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 12:42 PM EST reply actions
Admittedly that’s assuming Banuelos and Betances and Campos all make the ML and are decent, which is a huge ask. But it’s for a possible 16 (!!) more years of club control and saves $60 million!
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Because Felix is established and has proven to be durable and very good. Pineda has one good season. Not that baffling. Unless all you care about is saving money.
by Cols714 on Jan 14, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t care about saving money, I care about not spending it stupidly.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
OK. But spending money on Felix Hernandez doesn’t seem like it would be stupid.
by Cols714 on Jan 14, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
$60 million when you’re not going to contend.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
You still get to watch him pitch. You still have hope.
by Cols714 on Jan 14, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Legit LOL. Hope for a 75 win team? Get real.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is Felix a good pitcher? yes. Is it worth having him on the team and builiding around? Yes. Good players cost money. Stud pitchers are hard to find. Keep him and build.
by Cols714 on Jan 14, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, no offense, but that entire comment is a giant cliché devoid of any context.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
There’s also the whole thing about Felix Hernandez being WAY better than Michael Pineda. It’s easy to get caught up in projecting a great future for Pineda, but he’s only three years younger than Felix, and Felix has thrown 1,200 more major league innings, nearly all of them at a better level, and most at a MUCH better level than Pineda. Seattle has the kind of money that they can devote $20 million to one player and still build a team around him, and Felix is the kind of player you devote $20 million to.
by TheDanimal on Jan 14, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s unrealistic to think he won’t get a salary bump from $20 million, given that’s what his current contract ends at. So even with a (rather large) hometown discount, we’ll say $22.5 million/year.
In 2015 he’ll turn 29 weeks after opening day (April 18).
So, 7 years at minimum $22.5 million per, $157.5 million for a 29-30-31-32-33-34-35 year old pitcher.
Mariners fans actually think they have that kind of money? And what about when the Yankees come calling with a 7 year, $180 million offer? Or Texas? Or Anaheim? Or Or Or etc?
Moreover when do the Mariners think they’ll have the full roster to compete with Texas, or Anaheim? Six years from now?
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
According to that report, Cashman was willing to back up the truck for Hernandez by sending Seattle a package that included Montero, Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos, among others.
Emphasis mine.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
It’s a good package. I think the Mariners probably think they’re a lot closer to competing than you do (and there’s a pretty good chance you’re going to end up looking smarter than them).
Their payroll has ranged from $91 million to $117 million over the last five years, and according to USS Mariner they have less than $80 million tied up for 2012 (with Ichiro’s $18 million coming off the books at the end of the year).
They can be a player for Oswalt this year, as you mentioned, or Cole Hamels and Josh Hamilton next year. Hultzen and Noesi are supposedly young MLB-ready starters. There’s a chance that Ackley, Smoak and Montero mature into a middle-of-the-order threat that they can build their lineup around.
I can see how the M’s front office could believe they could be in contention 2013-2015 with Felix leading the way.
I also wonder how much Jack Z’s job security played into the decision.
by TheDanimal on Jan 14, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now LL is talking about signing Oswalt …
Who we should be in on, actually.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 14, 2012 1:05 PM EST reply actions
Maybe we are. You can never have enuff starters.
by jhon on Jan 14, 2012 3:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know, the stuff Oswalt was saying last year about back issues maybe leading him to retire is off-putting.
"You throw as long as you can and when you can’t throw anymore you don’t," the 33-year-old pitcher said after the game. "Hopefully it’s not to the point where I can’t throw anymore. If it’s at that point, you just have to accept it."
by cleveland teamer on Jan 14, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Are you really that concerned about his back that you wouldn’t agree to his one year $8 mil asking price?
Ummm, no.
This is exactly the kind of risk that the Indians should be taking. There’s no such thing as a 100% guarantee in baseball. And to the extent that there is, it’s way out of our price range.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 14, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Further evidence that this is the type of risk the Indians should be taking? See: Sizemore, Grady.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Well if we can pay Carmona $9 million …
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 15, 2012 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
Huh. I should have noticed the $8m/1 year thing before I posted that.
by cleveland teamer on Jan 15, 2012 4:19 AM EST up reply actions
You’re fired
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 15, 2012 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
42 new comments on a non-indians thread…. I bet…. Yep.
by Brick. on Jan 14, 2012 9:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
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