Fielder to DET—9/$214M
The Tigers are "very close" to a nine-year deal with Prince Fielder, Yahoo's Tim Brown tweets.
Maybe David Stern can step in and stop this deal ...
[Headline edited. Deal is done, per everyone on Twitter.]
4 months ago
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Sounds like Heyman is saying 9 years, $214 mil. Good God.
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jan 24, 2012 3:07 PM EST reply actions
That puts the Tigers on the hook for something like $170M for Victor, Miguel and Prince over the next three seasons (2012-2014). I hope Victor’s knees come back ready to play catcher.
The combined sum for those four guys, $230M, is probably a decent ballpark figure for the Indians team payroll over the next three seasons
Right. And a brand new BMW is worth the money, but that doesn’t mean I have $50,000+ to spend regardless of the value.
They don’t care about value. They care about winning regardless of cost. It sucks for us, but we’d love it if we were Tigers fans.
Did you see the contract? I don’t think they care about cost. And why should they. If they have the money and want to spend it getting better, why wouldn’t they?
And just like most of these fellas, that BMW will be worth half in 5 years.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
Can we stop pretending we wouldn’t want to have made this signing? Imagine putting Fielder on our team. It would really really really really help.
And yes, it’s a ton of money and maybe (likely) on the back end it’s a bad contract. But wouldn’t you like that for the first 5, 6, or 7 years?
Eh, I’m all for prudence, but not the same deal. Hafner was already 30 (31, maybe?) and had already missed a ton of games. Fielder, on the other hand, is 27 and pretty much gold plated in terms of durability and performance.
This, this, this. We can try to criticize or justify this all we want by counting on schadenfreude three years down the road, but let’s not act like this isn’t a huge win fro Detroit.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m really not sure this is a huge win for Detroit. They have a pretty complicated roster to sort out at the moment and have benefited from a remarkably healthy starting pitching staff of late. I think they’ve made their team better in the short-run, but they’ve also made it a lot more unbalanced in terms of offense/defense and flexibility than it was before. And signing Prince, while it adds a lot, does not make Victor’s injury non-existent.
So, being completely honest with yourself, you wouldn’t be excited if the Tribe was in the same exact situation? I call BS.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think he would be excited, but I also think he would be making the same sort of arguments in the form of disclaimers to those who were ready to crown the Tribe. There’s no denying, as he said, that this adds to the talent level on the Tigers. I think he’s just trying to impart some perspective to those who would believe that the sky is falling.
Sane people should be able to understand that :
1) This absolutely makes the Tigers better and
2) The sky is not falling for the Tribe
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
True. It’s also true that “common sense” isn’t really that common. The Tigers just signed a very good player. The Tigers did not just win the 2012 AL Central crown.
Oh, I should probably cancel those T-shirts I had printed.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 24, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Who said anything about crowning the Tigers? The original point being made was that the Tigers added a damn good impact player to their roster. If you agree with that point, I’m not sure what exactly you’re trying to say.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 25, 2012 3:44 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. Seems people are going out of their way to make a point to the contrary.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I would be more excited than if I was a Detroit fan because we have LaPorta.
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This is good point, the gain isn’t quite as significant from last season for the Tigers as it would have been for the Indians
it’s not like they were playing with a “replacement player” at 1B. were were playing with someone who IIRC, had a negative VORP
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Unfortunately it’s looking increasingly like we’ll be playing with the same guy who had a negative VORP last season.
I know…
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Follow @BRoss2013
I’m really not sure this is a huge win for Detroit. They have a pretty complicated roster to sort out at the moment and have benefited from a remarkably healthy starting pitching staff of late. I think they’ve made their team better in the short-run, but they’ve also made it a lot more unbalanced in terms of offense/defense and flexibility than it was before. And signing Prince, while it adds a lot, does not make Victor’s injury non-existent.
Yes, because in the cost benefit analysis of the signing roster flexibility clearly outweighs the benefit.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 25, 2012 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
What you say is not what I said. And I stand by my point. There are still 24 spots on the roster than need to be filled by people other than Prince Fielder.
Miguel Cabrera has told reporters he’s been asked to move to 3B. Seriously. I have no idea who’s DH’ing—is Magglio still alive?
When you hit that well, honestly, who cares? They don’t have to micromanage their infielders the way we do because they have guys that can legitimately hit.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think Miguel Cabrera will push that assertion to its breaking point. Don’t know if it will break but, man, this ought to be absurd.
It certainly has comedy potential, but I don’t think it will break them. Most likely scenario is that it’ll go unnoticed. He has no range, but probably won’t make a ton of errors, so the casual observer (and, likely, the coaching staff) won’t care.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Also, it took 5 errors in 14 games for the Tigers to end the 3B experiment the first go round.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I stand corrected, then
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
No kidding. I can’t wait to see him charging to field the inevitable Twins bunts like they were so many donuts falling off a table.
by Joel D on Jan 25, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Can’t rec this hard enough
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’d recommend splashing the donuts with a generous supply of whiskey.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 25, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
They are in a situation in which they will either be seeing Cabrera at 3B for substantial innings, Young in LF for substantial innings, or both. None of which will have a positive impact on their run prevention, and all of which will increase the workload on their pitching staff by creating extra outs.
Obviously Prince Fielder is very good and makes their team better. Constructing a team with 3 (4 if you include Victor) guys who can’t play defense but whose bats demand you play them is not easy, however.
its probably a win, but not a huge one. The financial implications of Fielder breaks down because of his size are enormous.
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And Adam Miller tore a ligament in his finger. Does this mean we should never develop pitching prospects?
Every pitching prospect is not Adam Miller and every big contract or contract extension isn’t Hafner. The fact that someone somewhere didn’t live up to the expected value of his contract is not an argument against big contracts everywhere.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 25, 2012 4:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yep. But over here every big contract is a reason for ridicule for some reason.
Detroit just got better. They may not like the contract in 5 years, but right now and for the next 3-5 years they made a pretty great move.
People are not arguing that this deal is bad in the short term. But people are arguing that in the long term this is probably a bad idea.
for the next 3-5 years they made a pretty great move.
Sure, but the deal is twice that long, so overall it probably isn’t a great move.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
And by the time that contract turns sour for Detroit, we’ll probably be rebuilding again, so what’s the point of deriding the Tigers here?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, the viable point that rains on every one of my parades.
by Joel D on Jan 25, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I mean hey, you know I’m an often irrationally exuberant Tribe supporter. I’m just calling it like I see it.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
If you’re exuberant about being a Tribe supporter, pointing out that you’re irrational is often redundant.
Touché
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m not considering the Indians when I judge this deal. From an Indians perspective this deal is bad, no doubt. I won’t argue there. But for the Tigers this deal is very high risk, high reward. If they don’t win a world series in the next five years they can probably kiss the playoffs goodbye for the next 4.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
I just think you’re fooling yourself if you believe the Indians could afford to put together anything close to a 9 yr/$214m deal.
I never said they could or should. I’m saying it’s a good move for Detroit. They have an owner who doesn’t care about paying the luxury tax and overpaying for talent. So it’s good for them and we don’t have to pretend that it’s not.
Given the Indians financial restraints, I don’t think they should make a deal like this.
To some degree this boils down to the, “would it be worth winning one title every 10 years and sucking the rest of the time, or being average most of the time and occasionally contending” question. The Indians approach is clearly the latter. I think most fans say they would support the former (though fans in Miami seem to be a natural case study of why this doesn’t work).
I would argue that Miami’s lack of a fanbase is a result of I what I think could be an emerging trend for sports – Due to the easy ability to watch all of an out-of-town team’s games, people no longer switch loyalties when they migrate from where they grew up. Miami’s high percentage of non-native population might bear this out. I think there a LOT of baseball fans in south florida, they just are watching non-local teams.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sort of. But the Tigers are in the win the title occasionally while contending a lot fo the time category. Which sucks for us.
Are they?
In 2010 they were .500
In 2008 they were last in the division at .457
In 2005 they were at .438
In 2004 they were at .444
In 2003 they were last at .265
In 2002 they were last at .342
So over the past decade they have had four above .500 seasons, one .500 season, and five sub-.500 season (including three last place in the division places).
And the last time I checked they last won a WS in 1984 and have only made it back once (2006) since then.
In other words, Detroit has averaged 76 wins a season over the past decade. The Indians, for who this hasn’t exactly been a great decade, have averaged 78.4 wins a season. Both teams have topped 90 wins twice during that span. The Indians have the best season win total of the time period with 96.
The Tigers had a good 2011, but that was hardly characteristic of the franchise’s recent history.
by APV on Jan 25, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They contended in
2011 (won)
2009
2007
2006
I’d say that’s contending a lot of the time. Yes, the sucked at the beginning of the decade but since then…
The Indians contended in 2001, 2005, and 2007. Does that one extra time really make a huge difference?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
The Tigers brought in manager Jim Leyland and general manager Dave Dombrowski in 2006 so I think that’s where the sample should begin. Since their arrival, the Tigers have clearly been on an improved trajectory.
During that time their payroll goes from 15th in the league (~$68M) to the top tier, topping out at $137M (and the #3) slot in 2008. And they have paid about ~$270M more than Cleveland.
I think making a World Series run in 2006 got the Detroit fan base excited and allowed ownership to chase wins by spending. Our ownership also pumped money into our team after our 2007 run, but not to the same degree.
Where the teams are really different is that the Tigers payroll has stayed elevated since then (despite some poor seasons), while we have cut 40% of our payroll since 2009. Detroit clearly has deeper pockets, but I don’t have a good appreciation for why.
Detroit is twice as big as Cleveland.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
With Fielder, it may now be 3 or 4 times as big.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 26, 2012 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Because of America’s insatiable demand for cheap pizza.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 7:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think Miami is a poor case study. That city never supports their teams, I don’t think it’s necessarily a reflection on the strategy.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
And so what? If they don’t care about the money and the owner wants to spend it. The contract no longer matters. For the team, it’s a pretty good move.
It’s been brought up, but no team doesn’t care about money. It’s fine, though. You’re going to believe what you believe no matter what. I could probably guess correctly that the majority of the analytical community agrees that this isn’t a great contract. We’re just calling a spade a spade. No one’s going out of their way to deride Detroit.
I’m kind of with you here. I’d give my left nad to for the Indians to win the World Series. Would it be a good long-term move? Absolutely not. Would I regret it as Acta lifted the trophy? Absolutely not.
by Joel D on Jan 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Guess, what, the day after you lifted the trophy, you’d wish you had your nad back.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 8:08 AM EST up reply actions
Can I stop pretending that I wouldn’t want to sign an overweight hitter from the NL Central with below average defense for 9 years and more cash than I can fathom even if I sit down and try? I haven’t started pretending, I honestly wouldn’t want to.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
If the Indians made this exact signing we’d be finding all sorts of ways to praise it. We don’t have to pretend that it’s a bad or awful deal just because the Tigers made the signing.
We’d love this if the Indians did it. Even though we (and the the Tigers I’m sure) know that the back end of the deal is going to suck.
by Cols714 on Jan 24, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He bats left-handed. We’d be lamenting the absence of a right-handed bat in the Indians batting order.
by peter m on Jan 24, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
But wouldn’t you like that for the first 5, 6, or 7 years?
That’s the question. It pretty much has to pan out in the first 3-4 years to be worth it.
I think the Tigers are OK with this and are going into this deal with eyes wide open. Give Illitch credit for opening his own wallet, he’s a rare owner.
by millionairesrow on Jan 24, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Ilitch is leaving this contract to his heirs.
by woodsmeister on Jan 24, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is the whole point, he wants a winner before he dies and will pay out of pocket for it
by The Grimace on Jan 24, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
They’re hoping the government eventually bails out he baseball industry too.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jan 24, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Next time somebody tells you that Detroit is not a big market, feel free to laugh in their face.
by woodsmeister on Jan 24, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
He’s only missed like twelve games total thus far in his career.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
That could mean he’s due. Grady SIzemore’s career says hi.
by cozmeesah on Jan 24, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I kind of think that while injuries can certainly be a negative predictive indicator, the lack of injuries is not a very good positive predictive indicator. You could have said the same thing about Grady Sizemore heading into 2009. Injuries happen, and they happen to pretty much everyone. They seem more likely to happen if you are throwing yourself around (Grady) or if simply the act of playing means throwing your weight around (Prince).
Seems like you are picking a fight with long term contracts. Unfortunately, that is generally the best way to acquire high end talent.
But what competitve advantage do we have in acquiring/developing our own young talent that will ever make up for never, ever acquiring established high end talent?
Well you’ve kind of fashioned a question there that I don’t fully think is relevent. Maybe a better way of saying this is, “Do we have a competitive advantage at acquiring/developing pre arb talent? Additionally, if this advantage exists will it be enough to make up for never aquiring established high end talent through free agency?”
I don’t think we’ve “proven” to have a competitive advantage in drafting and developing pre-arb talent, I think we likely have moderate advantage at acquiring pre-arb talent, and finally I think it is possible to compete without acquiring free agent talent, but only if you are successful in both acquiring through trade and drafting pre-arb talent. As I said, we haven’t proved the drafting ability (and certainly have been below average in that regard through most of the 2000s).
"Do we have a competitive advantage at acquiring/developing pre arb talent? Additionally, if this advantage exists will it be enough to make up for never aquiring established high end talent through free agency?"
This is exactly what I was asking. Thank you for clarifying the specifics that I left out in my haste.
I’m concerned that it’s just not possible to establish a big enough sustainable advantage in the pre-arb market to overcome a zero tolerance policy to the FA market, since as you said earlier, high end talent will almost always require a longer contract than we are comfortable with.
And then watch it leave in the prime of its career
by one two seven on Jan 24, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Cue all the Cleveland.com-like “If Detroit could get Fielder, we could have gotten him. We’re the same market as they are! Dolanz R cheeep” comments
No. But they could argue that Dolan is cheaper than Detroits owner (I’m blanking on his name right now).
If it tasted like pizza, which it doesn’t.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It fed my best friend and I way too many times in college. Now he has to have his gallbladder removed.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
by USSChoo on Jan 24, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Are you suggesting we feed USSChoo’s friend’s gallbladded to college kids and desperate people? You’ve gone too far!
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jan 24, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I am pleased to note that despite six years here in Athens, I have never stooped so low as to order from Little Caesar’s.
by ameliorate on Jan 24, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have had it once in the past 10+ years, and I’ll probably never forget it.
My illustration class 3 years ago decided we’d order pizza one day, and this neurotic girl put herself in charge. She told me of the plan, and asked for money. I figured $4 or so was a good deal for pizza and didn’t blink. A short while later, I found out that she asked for that amount from like the first 3 or 4 people she asked, then asked the res tof the class for like a quarter each.
So when the it arrived, to spite the process, I grabbed like 6 slices of “pizza” and went off into the abyss to do my “sketching”. That was the worst act of defiance ever. I felt it and tasted it for what had to be 10 days afterward.
Slightly warmed-over plastic would be my description.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
yeah unlike little ceasars, glue is actually made from animal products.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I worked there fro about a week. never eating there again.
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the quality of ingredients is awful. They used the super-processed cheese. And like someone said above, It’s barely made from animal products.
The ingredients are so cheap, that the super-processed cheese was the most expensive part of the pizza. I was even taught to make sure people didn’t use any more than the exact amount they were supposed to.
Funny enough, they made the dough fresh, but it was so much worse than when I worked at Pizza Hut (right after that job) and those crusts were frozen.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Dudes, I love LC’s pizza. I don’t get the hate. Better than what Pizza Hut has become, and better than that hot cauldron of crappy sauce Papa John’s calls pizza.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Plus I just realized, The only LC in Cleveland that i can think of is on E105 & St Clair. You know Bone Thugs’ old stomping grounds.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Really? on the westside of Cleveland I know of one on Denison, and in Lakewood there is one on Madison near Birdtown area.
Several in the east burbs, too
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
This could be my Cleveland Heights bias showing – If you live close enough to Little Italy, then chain pizza might as well be invisible
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I’d say there are alternatives on the westside too (Angelo’s in Lakewood, Danny Boy’s in Rocky River), but the cheapness is their selling point.
Now if they could get a decent “by the slice” place going around here maybe we could all forget about stupid Little C’s
I should have clarified, on the westside. Though I will make an effort to hit Vincenzas now that you recommend it. I can’t exactly picture where it exactly is. Is it near The Winking Lizard or closer to the E.4th area on Prospect?
On Prospect, at the end of the old Old Arcade closest to Gateway. Highly recommended.
by millionairesrow on Jan 24, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
never been to Angelo’s but I hear great things.
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Yeah it’s my favorite pizza in Cleveland (though I’m biased to the westside). A close second to my favorite in ohio (Adriatico’s in Columbus).
A man after my own heart. Angelo’s is easily my favorite pie of NE Ohio. Adriatico’s is fantastic as well, but the past 2-3 years I’ve been on the north side campus so I’ve been turning to Hound Dog’s and Sicilia’s, which are also very good.
When was this? I’m not sure how long it’s been there. It’s near Frambes and High, across the street from PJ’s.
I lived there from ‘01 – ’05. hmmmm I live’d generally around 9th st. and High area of campus. I can’t recall where in relation Frambes is. I have to go down there in a couple months for a job related training. I may seek it out for that weekend that I am there.
I was unimpressed. Tasty, yes, but too heavy on the dough and sauce for my tastes.
My favorite pizza in Cleveland is honestly from the Map Room on W 9th. Incredibly underrated.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
too heavy on the dough and sauce
So… not enough cheese?
by JulioBernazard on Jan 25, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I spent a fair amount of time in the Map Room in my short-lived Cleveland career.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
I was never really all that impressed with the pizza in Little Italy. Mama Santa’s may be the most overrated place in Cleveland, IMO. Valentino’s not much better.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Mama Santa’s can be inconsistent and may not be the best in the city, but my judgement is clouded. If you have been going to a restaurant continuously for your entire life, at some point it really isn’t just about the quality of food.
Come to think of it, that’s probably as good of an explanation for my interest in the Tribe.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
If you have been going to a restaurant continuously for your entire life, at some point it really isn’t just about the quality of food.
This is as good an argument as I’ve ever heard for Mama Santa’s. I totally get what you’re saying.
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by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
The thing about Mama Santa’s is that it’s good enough and inexpensive.
Lots of places come an go on Murray Hill. Some are good and most are just overpriced.
Mama Santa’s carries no pretensions and as long as you leave room for Presti’s, it’s a pleasant part of the experience.
Well, if you want a real cannoli, you ought to be going to Corbo’s.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
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by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
this is true. I believe Presti’s gets their cannoli shells from sysco.
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corbo’s is great. I don’t know that about presti’s for sure, but a family member saw them carrying sysco boxes of shells in.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
And Corbo’s fills them by hand for each order
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
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by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I love Mama Santa’s. Valentino’s is ok. I actually really like the pizza at Presti’s. Last but not least, if you can get your mind over the terrible name, La Pizzaria isn’t bad.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 24, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I like both, though I would love not having to deal with mr. Geraci ever again while going in there. He isn’t the nicest guy.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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there is one on Harvard and Lee too. There are quite a few in the east suburbs.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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When did they stop the two pizza thing?
The last time I ate their pizza was in the late 90s in college after coming back from being stationed in Japan for a few years. The people working there acted like there never had been such a deal and I was insane.
Am I insane (not generally insane, but in regard to the pizza thing)?
PBH! Nostalgia for the US and a coupon convinced me to buy a Dominos Pizza last week. Walking by the Dominos in Azabu Juban every day finally broke me down. Six or seven years ago was my last one.
Indigestion for three days. What a horrible pizza. Reminded me how lucky it is to be around fantastic food all the time, don’t have to settle.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 24, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
The last time I ate McDonalds was 1996 in Japan, after a buddy pointed out (weeks later) that eating American fast-food while living/traveling overseas is buffoonish. His quote was to the line of “Life’s too short to eat stuff you can get in any city back home while trying to take in the rest of the world.”
Those words have been bouncing in my head for years and there are countless chains that have popped up that I’ve never step foot in as a result. Eating independent or skipping a meal is a better option than eating chain food.
As far as pizza goes, I can make a far better pie at home. Galluci’s sells frozen dough balls for a buck.
You asked for it:
Mos Burger
First Kitchen
Shakey’s
Freshness Burger
Jonathans
Skylark
Doutoru
Pronto
Anna Miller
Almond
Lotteria
Yoshinoya
Kentucky, McD, Wendys (coming back), Burger King (back), Pizza Hut, Dominos, Dennys…
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 24, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I used to destroy the double chili-cheeseburger with jalapenos from Mos Burger!
I got kicked out of a Shakey’s once.
I hated Yoshinoya, but sometimes it was the only place open. The beef was sweet and tasty, but the rice was always sub-par.
I don’t know/remember most of the others though.
Oops, subject line mishap. Thank you sir, may I have another.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 24, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Mos Burger has been on my mind almost daily in the year since I visited Japan. I look forward to returning and indulging in the guilty pleasure I derived from the fine establishment.
I must be alone in thinking Papa John’s is edible.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 24, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
For a major chain, it definitely is. In the overall scheme of pizzas, it isn’t great…but not terribly awful.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I just think it’s hard to have pizza that tastes bad. I’ve only every had pizza from one place that I would consider “bad pizza,” and that’s Rascal House.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
Rascal house is awful! I had a relative that worked there and dreaded getting hooked up with free pizza…you know…because you have to eat free pizza.
In my department we get together every week and discuss a recently published article. We order pizza every week and despite my protests it’s always Rascal House. But I’m in college and can’t turn down a free lunch.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Good lord, Rascal House is so bad.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Rascal hous is bad, as is LC. Only 2 chains that I have had that are just “bad” and unedible. Places like Pizza Hut and Dominos aren’t “bad pizza”, but they aren’t particularly good.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
It tastes sugary to me. Anyone else get that? Like the tomato sauce tastes sweet to me.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions
Unquestionably. Sugar in pasta/pizza sauce is a pretty basic way to make it more appealing to a broad range of people. They used to put brown sugar in the spaghetti sauce at my high school.
That is a crime against my ancestry.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah, I know. To make a broad generalization, I love what my southern friends consider “spaghetti sauce.” Basically some sort of mixture between ketchup and brown gravy.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
That’s even worse than what Cincinnatians call chili.
by ahowie on Jan 25, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have one Skyline Cheese Coney a year.
Just to remind me how bad Cincinnati chili is.
by emd2k3 on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have lived down here for six years and have never been to Skyline or Gold Star. Ever. You cannot comprehend just how much this pisses everyone off.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously! And it’s not that I dislike Skyline or Goldstar or whatever. It satisfies a craving. But when people act like it’s a legitimate type of chili, like something you could enter into a chili cookoff, I go ballistic.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I’m right there with you. It’s definitely tasty, but it’s more akin to some sort of red meat sauce than chili.
Right
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
that reminds me, I have some in my fridge. yummy lunch today
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
The funny thing is, it originated as a greek recipe for beef stew. And the spaghetti was cooked IN the chili not separately
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly, but people don’t seem to know that bit of history. So even if I don’t particularly love it and have no reason to regionally, I have a bit of a soft spot for it, being Greek.
Another trivia bit – the guy who made this greek-style chili was actually Macedonian. And yes I know that is practically Greece anyways but still :)
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
I know, I know. It annoys me when people say Slovenian? Croatian? Same thing.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. I don’t care for it much. Pizza sauce should be tart.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
#pizzahipster
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
yeah I heard it’s one of the best places for finding blue collar work and associated service industry work
Western ND is absolutely out of control right now. You could move out there and get an 80K job in a heartbeat. Within the last 50 miles to Williston (NW corner, Phil Jackson’s hometown) there are just “Man Camps” every couple miles of barracks or campers that people are living out of.
Maybe I should move to ND when I graduate…
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, those “Man Camps” don’t sound all that enticing… now if they were “Women Camps” then we’d be talking
Yea, on the weekends they are fairly deserted. Most people have their families live elsewhere. But yes, those women camps do sound appealing.
LA
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly, not too much great pizza here. Burgers, though. Oh good lord, the burgers…
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Any favorites? And just to lay out my bias on the front end: I hate Umami Burger.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds amazing!
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, a new pizza place just opened in Westwood. It’s phenomenal: fresh, wood-fired, cheap. Going there for lunch today.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I lived in/near Westwood for 10 years. Pizza wasn’t memorable, but Japanese food at some of the places in Little Little Tokyo at Sawtelle and Olympic is good.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
So I’ve heard. I wish I was a bigger fan of Japanese food.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 28, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Try it, you’ll like it. Sawtelle Kitchen used to be good, fusion style.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well at LC’s you can purchase their buffalo ranch sauce for 50 cents a piece. It’s impossible to eat that pizza without it and a large bottle of Red Devil hot sauce (yes Frank’s is better, but if all you can afford is LC pizza than all you can afford is the giant bottle of Red Devil).
I’m not a Papa John’s apologist. I usually try to get a non-chain pizza.
Donato’s has destroyed the concept of pizza for the greater Columbus region.
I actually think Donato’s is really good as far as chains go, but if I’m looking for quality over price in the campus area, I’d probably just head on down to Hound Dog’s. Sicilia’s is quite good as well.
Hound Dog’s is quite a bit better than Donato’s. Around campus I think Adriatico’s has some of the best pizza.
I have to remember this if/when I do end up transferring there.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Darn right he is…along with 28 other owners!!!
Fear the Fedora.
by MooneysRebellion on Jan 24, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I’m guessing you’re talking about Lew Wolff in Oakland for one, but who’s the other one cheaper than Dolan? Pittsburgh?
Dolan is not cheap. I believe he is willing to absorb personal losses for the club more than most MLB owners are, and certainly more than the owners of the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Cubs and Dodgers.
The Indians are simply one of 29 teams that basically only spend what they can afford. Only one team is using the owner’s private money to sign players recklessly. That team is the Tigers.
by Jay on Jan 25, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And lest we forget It could be worse – Frank McCourt was actually looting cash out of the Dodgers to fund his lifestyle
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
And also why it sucks to be Twins or Royals fans, and somewhat White Sox fans as well.
Take heart, though: Hell be dead before long, and the next owner will be more like all the rest. Be assured that the other owners hate when Illitch does this and have great say over who the next owner is.
Gotta be more frustrating as a Twins fan. They have Pohlad’s fortune, and he’s only made one major overspend, Mauer.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions
Only one team is using the owner’s private money to sign players recklessly.
That’s true in one sense, but I think the hockey revenue structure makes this a bit more interesting.
Perhaps more interesting to some, but the bottom line is that Red Wings or no Red Wings, he’s still spending money that otherwise would be in his personal bank account, not on the team’s balance sheet. It’s not that interesting to me where it’s coming from, a hockey team or a venture capital firm.
This is undeniably true.
I guess it’s interesting to me in the sense that if you’ve set aside a certain (huge) amount of money to pittle away on owning sports teams, and then one of the teams not only restricts your spending but also makes money, that might make the spending easier.
At the same time, he’s undeniably got the right idea, period. Piece scheduled to go up in a bit on this topic.
he’s still spending money that otherwise would be in his personal bank account, not on the team’s balance sheet.
But the same is true if he pocketed his Tigers revenue instead of reinvesting it—I don’t see a practical difference.
They’re probably both subsidiaries of the same holding company anyway, with an uncreative name like Illitch Sports Properties, LLC.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 28, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
There’s no wrong day to write 1700 words on NRIs.
by Joel D on Jan 24, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It might be pretty comical to see Miggy at 3B if they move him now though. His D has gotten better but at 3B? Yeah… no.
by cozmeesah on Jan 24, 2012 3:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I will make sure to post this pic up in my office of two ballplayers close to my heart…
Prince & CC, courtesy The Onion
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
by T.O. Tribe on Jan 24, 2012 3:29 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Noooooooooo! Why? Why?
This is all our fault for trading Victor!
This freaking unfair, maybe we can stop this deal somehow?
We’re doomed.
I guess we’re heavy underdogs again.
We actually do better with lessened expectations.
It may not be easy, but we can do this! We can win the Central!
Thankfully, I haven’t seriously grieved recently. Right over my head.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
1992-1993 was a nightmare offseason. This has been a garden variety offseason for a team with limited financial resources. Like Dorn said, get used to it. We’re not going to be making big splashes in the FA market.
Fielder, career vs Kevin Slowey
PA AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPSPrince Fielder 15 13 2 1 0 0 0 2 5 .154 .267 .231 .497
Total 100 94 23 4 1 2 10 3 21 .245 .270 .372 .642
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 1/24/2012.
GAME ON, LOS TIGRES!
by afh4 on Jan 24, 2012 3:39 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
So, can we now look forward to Kotchman signing???
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jan 24, 2012 3:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Those two far right blue dots are Mo Vaughn.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Take a look at Big Daddy Fielder’s numbers, for a bit of perspective:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fieldce01.shtml
Peaked at 26, was done as an everyday player by 32.
by millionairesrow on Jan 24, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
There is no way stealing $200,000 of your 18 year old son’s signing bonus could cause some hard feelings.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure I believe the thinner part.
by millionairesrow on Jan 24, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you believe the weights listed at B-Ref he is. No clue how accurate that is.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
I passed Hafner in an airport once in 2008. I thought about offering to carry his luggage (which was slung over his shoulder). I blame myself daily.
by themadlibs on Jan 25, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
lol. This. But I still believe.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Help me out here. What are the points between 21 to 22 and 23 to 24, and so on. And why is there a burst of performance at 30, if that is 30? Last hurrah as fatties lose weight one last time counting flashcards before succumbing to the inevitable? That kind of outlier without explanation could mean just a small data pool. But the chart overall seems reasonable.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 24, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t believe it, this is terrible
by Polemic on Jan 24, 2012 3:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t get all the downtrodden lamentations. Yes, it would be nice if the Indians could pony up as much money as the big boys. But would we really want 9 years of Fielder for $214M? We used to talk about how unprecedented, physically, CC Sabathia was/is. But you can make the argument that for his position, he is without comparison in a good way. It is almost inconceivable to think that Fielder will age well given his physique (and I see AllenSmith has posted a recent chart on the issue while I type this). The Tigers have gotten better in the near-term, but it is much more uncertain whether they have gotten better in the long run. But their defensive prowess, or lack thereof, might be historically bad this season as their roster stands now. My guess is they will be looking to unload Victor on pennies for the dollar at some point in the near future. And filling 1B and DH with two aging sluggers for the foreseeable future does not exactly aid roster flexibility.
C’mon Adam. Who cares about the long term effects of the deal. We care about 2012/2013 before we start becoming a 70 win team again. It’s more or less game over now
Yeah, they’re the Philadelphia Eagles of baseball! No way that much talent fails to win!
by Joel D on Jan 24, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Unfortunately baseball is such an individual sport that you really could just sign a bunch of great players and not have to worry how they fit like in football and basketball.
But they still get to be prima donnas in the clubhouse together. Ask Boston how that turns out.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
the 1977, 1978 & 2009 Yankees would beg to differ.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
But I would ignore them because it kills my point!
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
by USSChoo on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Worked out well in 2004 and 2007
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
This is extreme I think. Lots can improve the Indians without adding anyone.
- Choo gets healthy.
- Jeanmar Gomez, Scott Barnes, De La Cruz, Laporta and/or Brantley can break out.
- Lottery tickets: Hanfer, Ubaldo and/or Sizemore return to form.
- Lowe is a tolerable #4.
- Etc.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I believe in Lowe as a tolerable 4/5
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Best case scenario? Sure. But what would you put your money on? I think Choo bouncing back is pretty easy money. Jimenez performing better is probably a pretty safe bet. The rest I’m not nearly as confident about. Should also include the improvement of a full season of Kipnis in there.
Does that reduce the 15 game differential, though? Sure doesn’t seem likely.
It’s more or less game over now
What? For 2012, they replace a guy who is about a 3 win player (Victor) with a guy who is probably a 5.5 win player (Prince). But in the meantime they create defensive shifts that are likely to cost them some of that offensive gain. Those defensive problems grow worse a year from now if Victor is still around.
But even for 2012, are you really suggesting that expected 2.5 win difference is the back-breaking margin?
by APV on Jan 24, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, wasn’t everyone handing the Red Sox the WS title this time last year? There’s a reason they play the games. It’ll make it harder for sure, but it’s not automatically checkmate.
by cozmeesah on Jan 24, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Yes, I don’t get the sky is falling stuff. Even Hoynes said something on Twitter to the effect of “So much for the Indians competing.”
If anyone should know better, it ought to be the fans of the team that won over 180 games combined in 2005 and 2007, then somehow produced a totally improbably 2008 Cy Young winner, after returning the 2007 Cy Young winner and the fourth place finisher, yet failed to make the playoffs for the next four seasons.
by afh4 on Jan 24, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Well, Hoynsie’s favorite pastime (aside from naps) is riling up the Cle.com crowd. So that’s not too surprising he said that.
I’m more afraid of Jackson breaking out on that team. If he starts getting on base, then yea, that team is unbeatable.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Jackson is frighteningly talented. But his 2011 really has to be pretty discouraging. Maybe he’ll suddenly get a lot friendlier pitches with Prince Cabrera batting behind him, but his regression last season came on basically the same pitch set he hit well off of in 2010. Alex Avila is also kind of scary talented, though he is due for some negative BABIP regression in 2012.
Couldn’t they just DH Fielder/Cabrera? Or am I missing something?
by ClevelandCrazy29 on Jan 24, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
The Braves did pretty well with this guy at 3rd.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=97&position=3B
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think you have to imagine it.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1744&position=1B/3B/OF#fielding
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
You don’t think a lineup of Miggy, Fielder, Vmart, Avila makes up for that?
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
It’s only an issue when Vmart comes back, hence he’s added there.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
But with Cabrera at DH, it means in 2012 you are paying Delmon Young $6.75M to be your left fielder. That seems less than ideal.
Sign me up to watch that. I’ll be pointing my MLB.tv to as may DET games as CLE if that happens.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
They also lost 1 WAR in Betemit and (I guess) are replacing that with -.4 WAR Inge so really they are about a win better than they were a week ago
We seem to care more about the long term viability of the club, and developing talent now. Interesting that people lament the Hafner extension right now because of his injuries, but are excited and wish that the tribe would send 24+ Million per year to Prince when we can expect to have 2-3 more good years, and the rest just hope that he is not the 25 million dollar DL man.
Of course. The Hafner extension was a risk that didn’t work out. But we were all pretty excited when they made it. Same here. Of course Fielder could start turning into pumpkin. No contract is without risk.
There is nothing wrong with excitment, we just really can’t look at a changing the face of the team economically and positionaly type signing as this until a few years into it. I for one thought it was “Pronktastic” when we signed the extension, but now, we are looking forward to shedding the payroll to add something more productive in its place. I understand the desire to have an exciting at the moment signing, I was overlly excited back in 97 when after being traded tot eh braves Lofton came back in free agency, but we have to see what will make the biggest impact for the team, not the biggest splash with the media.
my thought is that this is way too long for too much money. I wouldn’t want a 5-year, $24 million a year albatross around this teams neck in 4 years.
If it got us to the World Series I’d be OK with it. Hell if it got us a few division titles I’d be OK with it.
We know.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
by USSChoo on Jan 24, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Sorry, but this seems like over-rationalization to me. If the Tribe could have afforded this, I’d be jumping for joy. Fielder undeniably makes the Tigers better. I’m not crying and cursing our front office, but let’s not act like the kid who pretends he doesn’t care that his best friend got a PS3 for Christmas and all we got was a Virtual Boy.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
The Tigers have gotten better in the near-term, but it is much more uncertain whether they have gotten better in the long run.
I think this is the important point being made by many here. Of course this makes them better this season, and probably for the next 4 or 5. But the deal isn’t amazing. There are some definite downsides to it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
True. But the downsides are mainly all money related. Being that there is no salary cap in baseball, if Detroit’s owner doesn’t mind paying the bills, there is almost no downside. They may be paying someone a truckload of cash to sit around, but they can always replace him.
From a baseball standpoint, it was a great move. Especially for the near future which sucks for us because our supposed window of opportunity is also for the near future.
I agree, but I also don’t think this type of over-spending is sustainable for the Tigers. They can do things like this for a few years, but they aren’t making as much as they’re spending right now, and that just can’t last.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
It can last under one condition:
Illich stays alive the next 5+ years, the Red Wings are still profitable, and the Tigers win at least 1 WS. That’s really the only way it can last somewhat long term and it is still not a poor decision.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I don’t buy the idea that he could continue pulling money out of the hockey operation. People don’t get as rich as Illich by running businesses that lose money.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think his age does definitely play a factor in how he runs it and how he views it. He may just view “sports” as one encompassing business he invests in just for fun and may feel that if he makes money in one, he doesn’t mind losing money in another if it means winning a championship before he dies.
Then again, I am speculating a good deal with that. It’s definitely not great business, but he can afford it.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Keep in mind that he bought the Tigers for about $85M and Forbes recently valued the Tigers at $385M (this was before the ‘11 season). Even if he spends 50% above his revenue, he’s still in pretty good shape.
Those values are theoretical. The money he’s spending and the money he’s taking in are not.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
People aren’t lamenting because we didn’t sign Fielder. We’re upset because in our incredibly small window to compete the Indians have been unable to make any significant improvements to their roster while our opponents are making quality upgrades like this. I’m not expecting to sign the next A Rod, but a Beltran signing or Pena signing, just as two examples, are the kind of upgrades that we needed to make.
Not saying I blame the front office, just explaining why people are upset.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jan 25, 2012 4:06 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Great points
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
-Vmart, + Fielder
Net even.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 3:48 PM EST reply actions
Whoops. Sorry bout the subject line.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 24, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Just wondering… Does this incline the Tribe to try to make an impactful trade/ more willing to offer Cespedes enough to play in Cleveland?
by ClevelandCrazy29 on Jan 24, 2012 3:52 PM EST reply actions
I have a theory for why the Tigers can spend so much more -
1) Their owner Illitch is a much, much, much wealthier man than the Dolans. This does not automatically mean he will shake the money tree at a loss to spend for his sports teams
2) It does mean that he can afford to own another major sports team – the Red Wings. Since the NHL now has a salary cap, he literally cannot spend any more money on his hockey team and the Red Wings make ungodly stacks of cash.
3) I’ll bet that rather than buying more shares of Little Caesars he plows the additional Red Wings cash into the Tigers payroll. Effectively using the NHL to subsidize the MLB team.
So basically, blame hockey and by extension – blame Canda.
Ouch. Hit me and my country where it hurts. Oh well. In retaliation, Canada will now sell its oil to the Chinese….so there!
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
Mike & Marian Ilitch – #212 on Forbes 400 list (Combined Net Worth – $2B)
A stagnant economy continues to benefit Michael and Marian Ilitch’s Little Caesar’s chain, which sells $5 pizzas to penny-pinching consumers. Revenues are picking up at Marian’s Motor City Casino after a flat 2010. The Ilitch clan passed on the chance to buy the Detroit Pistons, but Mike’s Detroit Tigers are in first place in the AL Central. Next up: a new downtown hockey arena for the Red Wings.Selling crappy pizza and the American dream one slot machine pull at a time…
by The DiaTriber on Jan 24, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
We really need to start putting quotes or something around the word “pizza” when discussing LCs.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
You Clevelanders always go on about the Great Lakes Brewing Company — couldn’t they buy the Dolans out and starting selling Hot ’N Ready Beer?
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
ugh… “hot and ready beer” come on man trying to make it through the last hour of work without throwing up on one of my clients here.
As a side note: You should get your hands on some Great Lakes Beer, though not the IPAs (the bottled ones are okay at best..) i recommend the currend seasonal beer, Conways Irish Ale. It’s on par with any of there great beers.
The Edmund Fitzgerald Porter is widely considered as possibly the best American version of that style in the conversation world-wide.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh yeah that one is way better, I forgot about it because it is a seasonal. I was thinking more of Commodore Perry and Burning River, which to me are just “okay” for what they are. Edmund Fitz, is the best “regular” production item they run, and Conway’s, Lake Erie Monster, and Christmas Ale are the best of the seasonals in my opinion.
Now if you want to talk about brewery available only, then that’s when their IPA “Rye of the Tiger” takes the cake for me.. f’ng amazing beer.
Conway’s and Xmas Ale are better than Blackout Stout? Poppycock.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
blackout stout is a phenom
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 24, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Great Lakes’ Christmas Ale is the best holiday beer I’ve ever had. And living out in Colorado we have plenty of microbreweries, but none of their holiday ales comes close. It’s really too bad I can’t get it out here.
Breckenridge’s Christmas Ale is pretty good
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I’d rank Colorado up there with Northeast Ohio for good beer regions, of course the Pacific Northwest seems to being doing quite well from what I’ve heard.
SoCal is not too damn shabby
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yeesh
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
As a recent Cleveland transplant to San DIego, I agree 100%. I was not expecting to find such great beer in SoCal. Some of the NorCal stuff (I especially like anything that Russian River does) is pretty great as well.
by millionairesrow on Jan 25, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
And North Coast puts out some great beers – Old Stock Ale, Pranqster, and, my favorite, Old Rasputin.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jan 25, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I’m still amazed that a Cleveland area brewery didn’t grab the North Coast name at some point.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite truck, Grill ‘Em All, is often there. Unfortunately, it’s a pain in the ass for me to get there sans car.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 26, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I’m an urban planning. Have to at least make a good faith effort at the car free thing. Doing well enough so far.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 26, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, not really. Several of us in the program are carless. Public transit is pretty excellent here, despite the popular belief to the contrary.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 27, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Brewery only I would have to go with the Belgian Triple they make occasionally.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is what they called it. My wife calls it “Pre-order the cab draft”
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been wanting to try Edmund Fitz.
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Do. Gold standard of American porters.
by Brick. on Jan 24, 2012 10:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
when I get the time and the money, I will.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Man you listen to brick and not me?? :)
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
Everybody makes that mistake. I knew I should have called my self CincyTribeFan
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Would that make people listen to you more?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In my defense I only moved down here for work
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just teasing
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
hmmm I like that concept. How would one get designated as THE National Tribe Fan?
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Or is that The National, Tribe fan? The band and the ball team?
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
Don’t think I knew that. I guess that makes Cincy a little cooler maybe. They have Heartless Bastards too.
For pre dot-com bubble burst jobs. Maybe it’s a good thing.
If you’re looking for Northern Ohio music Jason Molina (Songs: Ohia, Magnolia Electric Co.) and Mark Kozelek (Red House Painters, Sun Kil Moon) are great entries. From Lorain and Massillon respectively. Much less mainstream than The National, of course.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
But man do I love me some Black Keys
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 26, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
They are pretty great. I missed the boat on their last tour and now they are doing arena type shows which doesn’t really interest me as much.
I think I’m some sort of reverse hipster that only likes bands once they’ve become mainstream. I only caught onto the Black Keys after “Brothers,” but now I’ve gone back and listened to almost all of their older stuff. I’d love to see them at an arena-type show.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 26, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
I saw them at Lollapalooza about four years ago and it was pretty awesome.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Lolla is on the list of concerts I’ve really wanted to go to. And The Black Keys are on the list of groups I want to see live. Jealous.
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I love and respect them, but El Camino is kind of a turd.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Really? I like it a lot. I like both it and Brothers more than their older stuff. Sounds more “produced,” which I actually like. And both albums are catchy as hell. Guess I’m probably not hip enough.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 27, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Ugh. There’s no edge or anything. It almost sounds like disco to me. The back half of the album just falls apart into repetitive, bland nothingness.
But all that being said, “Gold on the Ceiling” is catchy as h3ll.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Easily the standout track. Very much agree with you on that. And yeah, I suppose the back end of the album is a bit weak. Brothers was sort of the same way. With both, though, I felt like the front half of each album was excellent enough to make up for it.
Their older albums are good, but all the songs seem to blend together. Like, I can put on Thickfreakness and enjoy it, but I couldn’t tell which song is which, really. Though Attack & Release may be their best overall album.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 27, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
You see this from time to time with bands. Some people find a band early and like their earlier stuff better. Others find them after they’ve gotten a bit more popular and like their newer stuff better.
Personally, I like everything from Rubber Factory on, but I can see the point if you like sludgier sounds that you wouldn’t like the polish on El Camino, Brothers, and Attack and Release.
I’ve been observing through myself that typically, when you first discover a band, you’re typically going to always like best the first album/tracks that you hear. Unless you just casually like them. But if you love the music, it will never really get better that the music that made you love them in the first place.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
A guy I used to work with was a massive Red House Painters fan. That Mark fellow has quite the voice.
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
His Ghosts of the Great Highway album as Sun Kil Moon is the pinnacle of slow-core/folk.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
All great bands, certainly, though Ohio has brought forth none greater than the greatest one-man rock jukebox ever: Guided By Voices.
Now that they’ve reunited, are they still eligible for the Rock HOF?
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
I was very little at the time, but when I lived in Cincinnati one of the members of Guided By Voices, whose name escapes me, used to come over to our house from time to time. He gave my brother and I a harmonica that I’m pretty sure is still in my old room at my parents’ house.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Cloud Nothings are pretty awesome if you like lo-fi snotty post-punk. Their new album is pretty fantastic (albeit less lo-fi).
Yeah, I previewed Cloud Nothings on iTunes and I liked what I heard, although I don’t believe semi-melodic punk/post-punk will ever be better than it was with the Buzzcocks.
Also, I recently purchased “Days” by Real Estate and I can’t get enough. It’s pretty much the same vibe throughout the album but they do it oh so well.
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
I love Cloud Nothings. I recommend the Smith Westerns too if that’s your thing.
Shameless plug: a close friend of mine writes a music blog (thenoiseis.net). If you want to find local music, not a bad place to start.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
And the frontwoman of Heartless Bastards moved to Austin, I believe.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s the Nati thing :)
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Is Conways good? Never had a huge interest in trying it.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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That really depends on your taste. I’ve never really had anything they have bottled that I would consider BAD. I do have preferences, and for me Conways is in the middle of GLBC’s offerings.
However what downside is there to buying a six-pack from a locally owned Brewery?
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I am a jobless college student.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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1.75 liters of Paramount Vodka for you then! Also Cleveland “made”
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
mix it with some 7up and it is a (somewhat) tolerable way to get drunk.
There is always 4loko too.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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yes but 4loko doesn’t support the local economy….well maybe it helps the dental community, as well as the Cleveland clinic and univeristy hospitals
Actually, 4Loko was founded by OSU students. SOrt of local.
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#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I was just thinking in terms of as cheap as I can go, but yeah.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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If only the Toronto Raptors were invested in with the same rationale.
by supermarioelia on Jan 24, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Course the Leaf’s owners could be so incompetent that they lose money every year … if I remember correctly, I think the Ontario Teachers Pension is the majority stakeholder.
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Not anymore. Bell and Rogers media own the Leafs now. I only wish there was no salary cap in hockey ’cause them there are real moneybags.
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
So the Leaf’s two main owners are direct competitors of each other in their main business?
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. And frankly, it’ll be The Treasure of Sierra Madre when it comes to who gets the rights to broadcast Leaf playoff games.
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
You do realize the The actual Treasure of Sierra Madre doesn’t exist? (ducks)
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Ilitch is 82 years old and is willing to spend whatever it takes to try to win the Tigers a championship before he dies. He will probably not outlive the Fielder contract.
by woodsmeister on Jan 24, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
One of the articles I read today had a quote from Dombrowski saying that basically Illitch told him to do it since probably neither of them would be around to worry about the end of it. That’s pretty grim.
Outside the casket?
"Sounds like 'Take the Z-Train' to me." -- Antoine Batiste
by T.O. Tribe on Jan 25, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jives with what Law wrote: if they win a couple times in the near term, the deal was “worth it” and Dombrowski gets to hang that on his hat. If it doesn’t work out, by the end of the deal neither of them will be around, for different reasons.
You are reading my signature.
nah maaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn… be cool. it jives.
(stupid keyboard neighbors).
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jan 25, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Law would’ve corrected that, too
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Or the Magglio Ordonez deal did the Tigers. Or the Victor Martinez deal. Or the Dontrelle Willis deal.
Oh. Wait.
The Mauer deal was the first thing I thought of when I saw the terms of this deal. It seems probable to me that Mr. Illitch will come to regret this signing.
I get that the Indians are looking at a near term “window”, but there are plenty of examples of teams spending a bundle on free agents and then flaming out. I’m not saying the Tigers aren’t better, at least until more injuries incapacitate their older high priced talent, but I’m not ready to concede the AL Central to them for the foreseeable future.
Heavy P hits considerably better than Mauer, and doesn’t gain a lot of his worth from a position that he’ll have to leave sooner than later.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Didn’t mean to equate the two contracts, but you have to admit that even though he has been surprisingly durable up to now, his size increases the risk of injury as he ages. Paying anyone that much for 9 years has to be considered risky.
I still can’t believe Joe is making what he is. He was a singles hitter who played something around half the games last season.
To be fair to the Twins (although I don’t know why anyone would be), they signed him after his insane ‘09 season when he broke out with 59 extra base hits. That’s pretty much the year people were projecting when his power finally caught up with his skills. A combination of the injuries and that home ballpark have made it a dreadful deal.
I really do love Hot N Ready pizzas, but this is the last straw. I’m done with the them, as difficult as that is to say.
I haven’t been “ready” for an LC pizza since I was about twelve.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 24, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
and the twelve was your answer to the question “On a scale of one to ten, how high are you?”
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
With the addition of Prince, the Tigers infield + DH projects for 1315 pounds, an average of almost 220 pounds each. So you really need to add in the costs of the extra jet fuel when considering this signing.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jan 24, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
So in this case you need to multiply the cost of jet fuel times their WaRP – Weight above Replacement Player
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
This division is painful. I’m disappointed with our acquisitions this offseason, the Tigers capitalized on theirs. How can we compete for the Central Crown?
Ohio's premier Russian fan.
by Heavysoviet on Jan 24, 2012 4:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah it will be a dissapointment if they role into spring training without bringing in real competition or replacement for Matt LaPorta, to go into next season with expectations of gettting below league average production out of your first baseman is unacceptable.
I’ve said before I’d like to give LaPorta another year, and I still do. However, he has been given ample time to show his stuff. I really hope he comes through for us, considering he was thought to be a gem in the Sabathia trade.
Ohio's premier Russian fan.
by Heavysoviet on Jan 24, 2012 5:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I understand what you’d like to do, but as you mentioned, he’s been given enough rope to hang himself. The plate appearances are there and the results have not looked good nor project well. The earlier piece done by I think Andrew earlier this offseasn demonstrated this point. His historical comparables are not good.
I have to agree. Sad but true.
Ohio's premier Russian fan.
by Heavysoviet on Jan 24, 2012 7:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah his highest upside now looks like JT Snow or similar
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Reminded of this via Jim Callis on twitter…this also costs Detroit it’s first round pick in this year’s draft
Like every team, Detroit is hardly a sure thing. Their all-world ace pitcher logged a career high 271.1 innings last season. Their #2 starter (Fister) saw his innings increase 31% to 233.1 innings last year. Their #3 starter (Scherzer) had his third consecutive season without missing a start, but logged more than 200 innings for the first time in his career (and has seen a velocity decline in his FB every season). Their #4 starter (Porcello) is just 23 and has already logged 515 innings at the big league level (also with FB velocity dips every season). The defense, as I have said above, could be horrifically bad on several of the corners and possibly at SS depending on how you evaluate Peralta. A lot could go wrong.
Does the signing make them better next year…of course. But a lot can go wrong.
by APV on Jan 24, 2012 5:02 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Maybe, but he’s seemed that way since he was 18.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 24, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Forty bucks? Even Dolan would’ve ponied up for that deal!
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ha, yeah, I figured that. Just messing with ya.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
$39
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 24, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
what kind of dealer sells a 39 sack?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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He sends his avatar in case of a bust.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Never has a wholly innocuous sentence sounded so pornographic.
by Joel D on Jan 24, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Gotta say I feel that Porcello is on the verge of stardom
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 24, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
In this same vein, everyone was ready to hand the 2010 Phillies and 2011 Red Sox the WS trophies after their recent big offseasons. I seem to recall that the Giants and Cardinals won those respective titles.
Thanks for forcing me to recall that the Cardinals won another World Series. Vomit.
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Also, Fister and Porcello are major ground ball pitchers, no? What happens to their performance with this newly configured infield defense?!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 24, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Random thought: Prince’s Dad, Cecil, played for the Tigers in the early 90s (from 1990 to 1996, I think — really his best years). So, young Prince must have spent at least some time in Detroit at the time.
I guess he’s a slow learner.
Do we really want to make these kind of jokes about the perceived quality of a city to play baseball in?
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
My boss grew up in Detroit and said he once saw Prince & Cecil at the Pizza shop INSIDE St John Hospital and each one had a large pizza in front of them
My grandfather, who taught at the U of Toledo for years and adopted Detroit sports while there, would be delighted by this news and would be mercilessly needling my Indians-diehard grandmother. Unfortunately, he’s in the throes of Alzheimer’s now, so selfish me is missing out on that conversation. Another reason Alzheimer’s sucks.
I am so very happy that my boss has been on conference calls all day
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 24, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
God, the mental image of both of those guys just holding a whole large pizza is amusing.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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What did they order for the main course?
by Joel D on Jan 24, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
wutttttt lol. tigers are wankers and this’ll just make stuffing them that much more satisfying
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 24, 2012 5:52 PM EST reply actions
I mean, ok
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Like the phrase “stuffing them” and the classic gfp rolling prose style.
by Brick. on Jan 24, 2012 10:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Never apologize for those things
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
No Pam vs. Karen arguments yet.
How about Gabe vs. Andy?
My watch is broken... it's stuck on Tribe Time
#suckitLaw
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder what it would have cost to get Fielder for 2 years, something like $100M? 150?
Dave Cameron has an interesting point at FanGraphs:
…if the team had $214 million to spend this winter, they should have been in on Jose Reyes and C.J. Wilson, who won’t make as much between them as what the team just guaranteed Fielder.
by cleveland teamer on Jan 24, 2012 9:08 PM EST reply actions
But, it really does like as if Fielder wouldn’t have been signed if Victor hadn’t gone down. I don’t think Illitch was looking to spend the money. But, he’s in his 80s, trying to win a championship, and thought he had a chance. When Victor went down, so did the chance — so he anted up. Jay said it correctly (somewhere in here) — he’s the one owner in the league spending his own money to get a championship.
Many here lament the lack of a salary cap or other mechanism to better “level the field” between large and smaller market teams. I tend to view baseball as an entertainment business where more paying customers means some teams have more money to spend. Of course I favor some revenue sharing to keep enough competitive balance so that if a small market team out manages the big boys they have a realistic chance to contend. As a tribe fan I don’t like the fact that we never have an equal chance vs. the large market teams, but I’m OK with the system because the players union and the owners both have an incentive to maximize the total revenue, and if that means a bias in favor of big market teams, so be it.
When one owner tries to buy a championship, it drives up salaries and makes it harder for a team that is living within its means to compete. I also think it is bad business. To the extent that I care what the Tigers do, I am disappointed that an 82 year old owner doesn’t care about the long-term consequences of his spending decisions on the game as a whole. Will it make me less interested in following the Indians in 2011? Of course not.
I wasn’t actually praising Illitch. Just stating the fact that he’s spending money of his own, not revenue generated by the team. He can do that, I guess, ‘cause he’s in his 80s and is looking at the short-term picture. And, he may do a lot of damage in the process – you are right about that.
Will it make me less interested in following the Indians in 2011? Of course not.
Unless you own some sort of time machine, I don’t think this sets you apart from anyone else.
At my age I can’t remember what happened yesterday, so it will be a pleasant surprise when we get off to a great start and the Tigers don’t.
by Pa tribefan on Jan 25, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
I suspect you would have gotten more recs had you not made the ever-so-bold (pun!?!) move of using the subject line.
I don’t think that’s a subject line. I think it’s just a bolded word. The subject lines are links that can be clicked to collapse the comment.
I must say the no subject line rule is pretty innovative. Makes you feel part of a tribe (terrible?) and is easier on the eyes.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 25, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
Downtrodden Lamentations? Wow I wanna drink some of the Kool Aid APV is drinking? Viewing this acquisition as anything but trouble for the Indians short term plans is delusional at best and counterproductive at worst. By this rose colored thinking and perpetuating the endless Tribe front office rebuilding mantra only means the Indians will once again be in revision mode along with the pussycats once the back end of Fielder’s contract occurs. Why wasn’t the Tribe involved in getting Fielder or Reyes this year and please spare the accounting representation of the Ownership.
by AlkiTribesman on Jan 25, 2012 2:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Was it not short term enough of a large long term cash outlay?
by NatiTribeFan on Jan 25, 2012 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
Why wasn’t the Tribe involved in getting Fielder or Reyes this year and please spare the accounting representation of the Ownership.
You can’t ask a questions and then say you don’t want to hear the answer.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I want to know why I’m not a millionaire and please spare me any talk of “talent.”
by painaxl on Jan 25, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The answer perhaps is owner incompetence and apathy. Cablevision is a massive company with huge profit margins and the stock has a respectable P/E ratio. Richard Jacobs had less money reported than the Dolan’s yet spent money to build the team; he bought the team for something like $35 mil and sold for $350 mil if I recall. The team started winning, fans came, and revenue was generated. It’s fair to say that Dolan bought high after the glory Jacobs’ years (the latter portion) but it’s getting to be quite frustrating when the Tribe has since traded away organization pillars Sabathia, Lee, Martinez; granted we have returned some good pieces such as Masterson, Santana. Perhaps my philosophy is more grounded in questioning the rationale and the “mainstream, conventional wisdom” that certain teams simply can’t afford to spend money. I call bogus on that and instead submit that with proper investment by an active ownership group, teams can return positive returns and can put wins on the board. I also understand that simply signing people is not the only solution, but minimal free agent activity coupled with fire sales and a poor track record in resigning top performers is a bummer. See article re: “Indians Front office asks ownership for money to attract C Pena; C Pena in turn signs with low budget Tampa”.
by AlkiTribesman on Jan 25, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Does Larry steal from his nephew’s company?
by JK in CBus on Jan 25, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Do you have that Jacobs-Dolan bit at least saved somewhere on your computer so its a simple copy and paste at this point? I would feel even worse for you if you were always spending the time to retype it.
From a micro view, is the opportunity cost of your harassments of me contributing to your delusions of grandeur?
by AlkiTribesman on Jan 26, 2012 1:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Jacobs family sank less of their own money into the team than the Dolan family. This is a fact.
The Indians under Jacobs were more likely to let free agent stars walk than under Dolan. This is also a fact.
As for the conventional wisdom on spending, the Tigers have spent about half a billion more than the Indians and have only slightly more success to show for it. They also are in a media market almost twice the size of ours, which helps absorb the extra expense. It’s not really conceivable that the Indians could do better by deficit spending $50 million per year or more. There’s just no way that that money comes back; it would bankrupt the team within a few years, and in fact MLB has rules that would prevent it even from being attempted.
Basically, you are wrong about everything except Dolan buying high.
by Jay on Jan 26, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
That’s a pretty expensive high purchase. Usually I would just stick to pizza or Chinese food.
I like ex-Phillies prospects.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 27, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Or like five bags of Doritos.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Boy I’m so glad you are here to represent the Dolan’s accounting with such authority. Now that you said it, it must be true. Thank you. Let the conventional, mainstream wisdom prevail on this blog. I’m out to more fruitful and non-hostile environs. Good thing is most Clevelander’sare not nearly as arrogant and conceded as most of the know-it-all’s around here. Peace.
by AlkiTribesman on Jan 27, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
I hope you don’t go away. You should stick around. Be patient, come in with solid reasoning and/or sold facts, and you’d be surprised how much you like it.
I guess I’d want to hear your idea of proper investment. If true for the Indians, it must also be true as a strategy for 31 other teams. Baseball is a zero sum game, if somebody wins, somebody else loses. Not everyone can win.
Privately held enterprises built to make cash profits get edgy and nervous when they take on spending beyond reasonably expected revenues. Remember, it’s not not some nebulous public investor’s skin in the game, it’s mostly their own.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 7:12 AM EST up reply actions
You question my motives but don’t provide any evidence or argument of your own.
You just hate the Dolans. We are not impressed by that.
You are off to dumber environs, I guess. When you want to get smarter, come back and let’s talk some more.
by Jay on Jan 31, 2012 1:46 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It will be very interesting to see if the defensive move affects Miggy’s offense. What’s the over/under on 3B errors for the tigers this year? 30?
by Aussie Wahoo on Jan 25, 2012 7:36 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Under. You have to be able to get to the ball to make an error. Can Miggy even reach the ground?
by Joel D on Jan 25, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pointing out that this is not a straightforward “win, win, championship!” for the Tigers is not irrational on my part, nor is it devoted Tribe boosterism. The Indians, as I have argued at several points in the off-season in depressing ways, could have done more to make this team better over the past several months. This doesn’t change my view on that. And yes, Prince Fielder actually fits a lot better on Cleveland’s roster than he does on Detroit, so I would be happy with signing him. But there is no way that kind of a contract fits with Cleveland’s approach towards building a team. And I think, given the constraints the Tribe operates under, the FO does a pretty good job putting a plan in place.
As for the nuance from Detroit’s side, obviously Fielder is an excellent player. Baseball works by each team putting together 25 chips of talent, in the form of players filling up roster spots, and hoping your chips outplay your opponents across 162 games. Only you can’t just add up your chips in a vacuum; they have to be distributed across a set number of positions on the field and in the lineup and they have impacts on each other. Offensively, the Tigers addition of Fielder to their lineup makes them legitimately scary. Cabrera and Fielder are fearsome, and presumably have a positive impact on the overall lineup. But Cabrera, Fielder, Young (and Victor) simply can’t play defense. Add to that Boesch’s poor defense in RF, arguably Peralta’s sub-par range at SS, and you have the makings of a really really bad defense. Having so much of your offensive talent concentrated on guys who can only play in very limited roles simply diminishes the value they provide. If the Tiger’s defense is only kind of bad, this effect probably doesn’t make a huge difference. But if they are really bad, the results begin to have a more significant impact not just on a game to game basis, but on the functioning of the entire team. Extra outs make innings go longer, they create more high-stress innings for pitchers, and they simply make pitchers work harder. It doesn’t really matter if the Tigers’ pitching staff is heavy on GBs or FBs, because any combination that has a left side of the infield with Peralta and Cabrera or an outfield with Young and Boesch (and Comerica’s spacious outfield) is simply going to cause some problems.
Adding Fielder to Detroit definitely makes them better, but it doesn’t have as much of a positive effect in the short-term as it would have if you added Fielder to Cleveland, for example. Fielder’s skills are clustered in the same area as too many of Detroit’s other players. The argument that Cleveland should have made this deal is just silly, because it was never going to happen. This doesn’t mean Cleveland shouldn’t have pulled the trigger on a few other deals this offseason.
by APV on Jan 25, 2012 1:28 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I think the defensive concerns are being overstated. For this year, Fielder and Cabrera can easily share 1B and DH. Going forward they’ll have to add in Martinez as well but I don’t know that sharing C, 1B, DH between 4 players is the disaster that some here are making it out to be.
Fielder and Cabrera can man those positions, but that leaves Delmon Young and Brennan Boesch occupying the corner OF spots (not to mention Brandon Inge batting from 3B). That is still not a great outcome.
There’s a big difference in the 3B question for the Tigers. If Miggy can’t do it the WARP difference for the Tigers is only 1.5ish for the difference between Fielder and Vic looking at the last three years. A decent comparison (not great) would be like us signing a good closer. Sure it would help, but just how much.
I read that Inge wants to be the full-time third basemen
He’s got to do better than .197/.265/.283 if he wants the job.
Brandon Inge is crazy popular among the fans. Watch an FSD broadcast sometime. Inge is almost always Player of the Game, which is decided by fan votes. It’s a joke amongst the fanbase. It seems insane to outsiders who look at his numbers, but something about his high socks and giant gums and grinder attitude and the fact he was there in 2003 and is there now add up to make him beyond reproach.
Now, his broke-ass knees also contributed to his struggles the last few years, and we all know what it’s like to have a favorite player with wonky knees who just can’t quite perform.
I agree. Their defense this year won’t be enormously worse than it was last year — especially if they simply slot Fielder in to the spots Victor occupied (some 1B/some DH). And, offensively, they’re only somewhat better (maybe) with Fielder than Victor (because of the added power). Having BOTH Victor and Fielder next year will make them pretty formidable, but that’s next year.
For this year, the real question is going to be pitching. Would we trade our starting staff straight up for theirs? Personally, I think the Tigers staff has a better resumé, but it’s hard to imagine their being significantly better than they were last year. The Indians staff clearly CAN be better; but, I’m not all that confident that they will be. If they are, and if the Tigers’ pitching slips a bit, then the Indians will be in it, I think.
Good Detroit writeup about Miggy at 3B.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 25, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That’s why I put the over/under at 30 errors for Tigers 3B this year.
by Aussie Wahoo on Jan 25, 2012 4:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
great write-up. All the tigers fans are ripping it for a shred of pessimism, but pretty much everyone else is way too optimistic. Ticket sales are up over 300% since this happened. The guy is being realistic and everyone is still on that post-contract high.
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Victor is not a catcher anymore.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
The Indians, as I have argued at several points in the off-season in depressing ways, could have done more to make this team better over the past several months.
To say that I don’t care what moves other teams make is a bit of an overstatement, but its fair to say I care a LOT more about the moves “we”, as in the Tribe’s FO, make. The fact that Detroit signs Fielder, or when the Yanks blow another quarter billion dollars on signings, makes me wish we had more money, but I don’t really CARE about what the other teams are doing.
I care about the Tribe, and I just want to see them get better, and when the brass makes a move to actually improve the team it makes me excited and increases my anticipation for the upcoming season. If for some bizarre reason it had come down to us vs. the Tigers for Fielder’s services, I’d be disappointed right now. But we were never in the running, so basically I don’t care.
I am somewhat disappointed right now, tho, and its not because of Fielder. Its because Netti has done zero, zilch, nada to actually improve this team, right at the onset of this self-proclaimed “window of opportunity”, on the heels of the big U-trade that created that window and spent what is to us hard cash – highly rated prospects – to do so.
Every move has been to add depth at various positions. But not a one has actually improved any position. Yes, I realize this is necessary and important, and actually improves the team’s performance over the course of the season, yada yada.
But those are moves that a junior GM can do without difficulty. In fact, you don’t need a person at all for many of them, since they all involve fairly objective analyses of prior performance and current value, and Diamond Vision or whatever the latest steam driven algorithm in use can
crank out a list with these players on it with not much input involved.
No, not a single position on the 25 man has been clearly upgraded, with the possible exception of 4th outfielder. I don’t count Grady’s signing, since Grady’s not an improvement on Grady – he was on the team last year.
If it remains this way until ST, I’ll be really disappointed, and will assign Netti an F in my internal grade book. Like I said, I don’t care if other teams sign better players, I care that we do.
If we could have gotten a Cuddyer, Lee, Pena, or another midlevel 1B in free agency, I’d feel much better about the whole offseason. I like how they got deeper, especially in the OF and the rotation, they just needed to grab a more bat
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For me, OF is a bigger hole than 1B. Grady tweaks his knee in ST (higher probability than anyone else on the team for an early injury), what do we have?
At least at 1B we have guaranteed .700 ops or above. I’ll give the Laporta/Santana/Whomever platoon that.
Sans Grady, we’re in deep doodoo for a starting OF.
I tend to agree. I’m not worried about CF specifically, but more simply filling the 3 OF spots with productive guys. Pluto, who I assume is just passing along what the FO tells him, seems to think the Indians internal numbers say Brantley can play CF. This is counter to his UZR numbers at the position, which strongly suggest otherwise. But I’m willing to show some deference to the Indians internal evaluation of these things, as I think they have smart people and access to better data than we do on the topic. But even still, the outfield depth is weak, which is why the contract I am most jealous of this offseason is that belonging to Carlos Beltran.
In the micro view, I agree with your assessment that OF is the area of greatest need. If Carrera-Brantley-Choo is the most common OF we put out there this year, I would be pretty surprised if we finish above .500.
In the bigger picture though, and as more of a response to your comment above: Given Antonetti’s moves as the GM to this point, he pretty clearly has shown a willingness to pull the trigger on risky moves when he sees fit, so it’s not as if he’s clammed up and being ultra conservative. I also think it’s pretty fair to say that he realizes our current position in the competitive environment, and almost surely, more accurately than we do.
Accepting those points, can’t we assume that he knows what he’s doing, and probably sees the opportunity cost of any of those contracts more clearly than we do?
If anything, I’d be quicker to criticize his skills as a salesman. At some point, we are going to have to convince players on the open market (or their agents) that Cleveland can be an attractive place to play.
Y’know, I hear you, but I’m not going to accept the “he’s the GM and knows better” line. For one, its my avocation as a fan to weigh his moves and give him a thumbs up or down regardless of my lack of inside info – what’s the alternative? Not pay attention? I pay enuf attention to all aspects of the org to have an opinion, and I can fairly say that over the years my initial reactions, and then more considered responses to personnel moves has been pretty judicial. (Not to mention the ones I wished had happened!)
Secondly – so what? GM’s are in a privileged position, sure, but that doesn’t stop them from making bad moves, or as the case may be not making moves when they should. In this case, given the chips that have been moved onto the table, more than acquisition of depth is indicated. At least one position needs to be truly upgraded to back up the bet.
I feel that as long as we can say somewhat healthy, we at least have some nice depth at OF.
We aren’t great at OF, but we have much better depth there so we don’t have to rely on Carrerra if we don’t want. I am also somewhat optimistic that Lewis or Spillboughs turn out to be 700+ OPS guys. They both had shitty 2010s, but were consistently 700+ OPS guys the previous seasons before.
LaPorta always seems to be injured and he sucks. If he gets hurt, who do we have? Duncan?
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Dont’cha hate it when 700-750 ops at 1B and LF on your favorite ML baseball team is deemed passable if not an improvement?
It’s very sad. Especially at 1B where hitting is at such a premium.
Also, another point is when typing this I was still thinking we had Fukudome. I dunno if they are planning to resign him, but either way I fear the production at 1B more than corner OF.
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I do completely get what you are saying though.
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Tough to upgrade when the guys you are pursuing are taking less for other teams. I think Antonetti feels his best way to upgrade will be via trade during the season.
As has been cited ad nauseum, we’re just not in the position to pursue any FA that there’s actually any bidding for. Given the arbitration pay hikes, I’m not even sure we could sign someone like Kotchman or Lee at the going rates, regardless of whether they’d represent a significant upgrade.
Apart from the NRI’s, the only FA acquisition, technically, was Grady, and its fair to say that was a team friendly deal given the circumstances.
Pretty much the only way to upgrade right now is thru trade, and Netti hasn’t made use of the one area we have true ML depth that would bring a significant return, and that’s the bullpen. I fully expected at least one of CPerez, RPerez, Sipp or Smith to be dealt.
The trades he has made this offseason have been from the not quite ready for primetime relief depth, but he’s been unwilling to trust (or trade) our “ready” depth to address areas of real weakness.
At the extreme end, on par with the U-trade that created this window in the first place, we have Kipnis and Santana, each whose market value is sky high right now, each with a passable replacement already on the 25. I’m sure any move along those lines would generate a lot more heat than 600+ comments in a thread devoted to another team’s move, but I can also see a big trade like that making us a better team for the next two years.
Since we’re in the “win now” mode and all.
I don’t think it’s an unwillingness to trade from depth – the market just never seemed to transpire. There were a glut of closers and effective relievers available via free agency and trades, and the 4 relievers the Tribe would be willing to part with aren’t likely to improve the 25 man roster.
Trading Kipnis or Santana would be interesting to explore, but it’s hard to fathom a scenario where they’d get adequate value in return. ML ready prospects under control for 4-6 years are insanely valuable, especially to a team like Cleveland.
I think trades are always possible, and of course you have to get something you want in return, or you don’t do the trade. But to note that the reason for trades not happening is due to some players not being valuable enuf and others being too valuable is just, well, noting that no trade has taken place.
I mean, if somebody on this board had suggested trading White and Pomz and Gardner for Ubaldo last summer, there would have been a bit of a discussion as to why the values didn’t match up. But once the trade is made, the perceived value changes – why would we give those players up? Hmm, well White has that finger thing and Pomz has trouble going six innings, and if Jimenez can regain his form, then…
Trades set and change perceived values, and unlike the FA market, there is a team-specific value for a player as opposed to all other teams – because of depth, or lack of same on your team, etc. The only reason we got Santana for Blake was because Santana was perceived as blocked, and LA had a need for someone like Casey. Trades always deal in relative values.
I think he thinks trade opportunities will be more favorable during the regular season and he may be able to stomach a month or two of awful first base play, also assuming Carlos gets time at 1st.
Extremely good point. It’s a double-whammy; the Indians already (have decided they) need to spend efficiently, and yet the FA market demands that they overpay even relative to clubs that are similarly positioned in terms of market, success level, etc.
The Indians significantly overpaying for Pena or Beltran seems like a fool’s errand. At least in Pena’s case they did offer to overpay and it wasn’t enough. Very few players have no-trade clauses and the Indians can acquire without paying the “Cleveland Markup” by exploring the trade market.
Detroit DHing Fielder on a regular basis is an invitation for him to get even bigger than he is now. Pundits are saying how much this well save his knees from standing at first base all evening. Really? Standing as a statue at first base is fraught with injury danger? That says something. But I’d be more concerned about him going on Twinkie and HoHo binges while sitting on the bench for three hours and more every night.
Gotta say if I was a Tigers fan though, I’d be tuned in to watch him and Cabrera bat.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 28, 2012 7:52 AM EST up reply actions
The idea of 1B being difficult on the body in terms of repetitive motion (or fatigue or whatever) injuries is a bit hard to swallow. It’s certainly something more than standing on the top step of the dugout but, how much more?
Sort of reminds me of a nanny state argument or something. If you don’t want him to play 1B to save his body, what did you write out of his contract? All other sports, I hope. Walking in the mall? Dancing?
Most experts say that playing 1B is more similar to CF as an injury risk than it is to DH. All that time standing out there is in fact stressful on knees.
Let me see if I can remember the situation that was being referenced and Google it up. Maybe I’ll ask Carroll, it was probably something he researched.
This recent piece from Corey Dawkins at BP provides some summary data. The superficial takeaway would be that outfielders in general (they don’t break it down by placement) have a slightly, but not by a large margin, elevated DL-tendency compared to 1B. They have OFers down for 14,174 non-preventable DL days from 2002-2011, compared to 4,362 for first basemen. Divide the OF number by three and the difference is 4,724 vs. 4,362, or about +8%.
But they both have to bat, right? I think you can just assume the batting injury risk is the same and that whatever resulting difference is the result of fielding. Same with baserunning, though that is probably a much weaker assumption.
I can see arguments why the batting injury is not the same: DH is not as warm or, perhaps more convincingly, 1B comes to bat with the wear/tear of whatever happened the previous inning defensively.
I’m not terribly convinced by my own argument, but I’m not comfortable just assuming the risk of batting/baserunning injury is the same for all positions.
You would assume fewer baserunning injuries for a highly athletic, speedy outfielder.
3 … 2 … 1 …
by Jay on Feb 1, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Might assume more, since he ought to be exposed to greater risks (taking extra base, stealing, etc).
Way too soon.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 1, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
That’s interesting, but wondering if the positions have similar inherent risk, or that players playing first base are just more fragile to begin with, thus they get injured at a similar rate. I mean, it seems that teams put players are first base to give them a break or because they can’t survive at more physically taxing positions. The data surprise me.
In Prince’s case, what is the balance of keeping him active and keeping him uninjured and keeping him from eating his way out of the league? Him sitting on the bench for three hours is the kind of sloth I’d worry about. Any injury that takes away from conditioning like a like or leg or back injury, he could go to unmovable very fast.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 5, 2012 3:53 AM EST up reply actions
I’m pretty relaxed about this. We are going to be laughing in a year or two when it turns out that Prince is really a guy called Bobby Higginson and is actually 56 years old.
by LondonTribe on Jan 25, 2012 2:38 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Joe Sheehan raises another point I hadn’t even thought of. The Tigers will play 18 interleague games this year, nine of which won’t feature a DH. Cabrera basically will have no option but to play third in these games. Same holds if the Tigers were to make the post-season.
Same holds if the Tigers were to make thepost-season.World Series.
Right? Anyway, if you’re concerned about potential flaws in your team that could only show up in the World Series, you’re doing something right. Put another way, wouldn’t we all love to have to worry about how our roster might work in a World Series?
I thought Miggy was slated as the everyday 3B, no?
Also, the Tribe does/would have an even bigger problem than that with Pronk in IL games in NL parks and WS games.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I know this is blatantly self-serving, but…
I’ve gone green five times in this thread and have two other comments with two recs each. When I start commenting in front of packed out arenas, you can say you knew me when.
Also, you now have an idea of how empty my life is.
by Joel D on Jan 26, 2012 5:00 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I knew you when your name was junkballer.
by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
You’re comping all of us, right?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 26, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Amusing contract fact of the day: The 3rd highest paid outfielder on the 2012 Mets’ payroll is….Bobby Bonilla
by APV on Jan 27, 2012 2:52 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I found something on it. He is making 1.2 million this year
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Found this from awhile back, which I think is a pretty good take on the matter considering what was going on at the time with the Mets and Madoff.
Had it actually worked as planned, it would have been a great move by the Mets. That said, any investment fund manager who would guarantee a 12% annual return should have been viewed with a lot of suspicion:
It is actually correct, and a horrible deal…for Bonilla. Ahh the power of compounded interest. The way it works, the Mets set aside $6 million in 2000 @ a rate of 12% per year. They are not allowed to withdraw any funds until year 11, in which they can withdraw $1,200,000 per year for 25 years. After the 25 years, and after paying off Bonilla, the Mets will have…drum roll please….$138 million. So they took the $6 million he was supposed to receive and invested it themselves and made $132 million for themselves on it. They also have a similar deal with Bret Saberhagen. Now here comes the problem with this deal and others. Madoff is the one that was guaranteeing them the 12%. So the Mets are now going to be paying the players out of their pockets, with new 2011 dollars, not 2000 compounded dollars, and on top of that, never receiving the $138 million lump sum. Much of the speculated $700 million the Mets lost was not what they lost out of pocket, but what was supposed to be there after this great compounded rate.
and as a comparison point
If Bonilla had taken the $6M payout in 2000 and invested it himself at a much more realistic rate of 5%, compounding annually with no withdrawals, at the end of that 36-year term he would have a shade under $35M. Technically more than what the Mets are paying, but realistically less given what he can potentially do with investing the annual $1.2M payouts and the time value of money. Still, it’s not nearly as ridiculous a deal as it seems.
It really only makes sense to take a deal like this if you feel you don’t have any self-discipline and would squander the $6M payout, but given what happened to many players in Bonilla’s day (Clark, Gwynn etc. filing for bankruptcy) I’m sure he considered this possibility.
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