Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

by Ryan on Aug 9, 2006 9:54 PM EDT in News

Traded OF Todd Hollandsworth to the Cincinnati Reds for a PTBNL or Cash

The Indians are in full tryout mode, so there's no point in keeping a spare part like Hollandsworth around. Todd served his purpose with the Indians, and put in a couple good weeks of every day play while both Jason Michaels and Casey Blake were on the Disabled List.

Recalled OF Franklin Gutierrez from Buffalo

The young get younger. Gutierrez has been on a hot streak of late, hitting .368/.429/.684 in August, but his overall numbers don't scream for playing time. He'll probably steal some at-bats from Jason Michaels down the stretch, and should be playing right field against left-handers.

Signed LHP Cliff Lee to a 3-year Extension

Cot's Baseball Contracts breaks the contract down like so:

$750K
$2.75M
$3.75M
$5.75M
$8.0M Option ($1M buyout)

Even with Lee regressing this season, it's a pretty good deal. Signing Lee takes care of the biggest arbitration case facing the team this winter, and it pretty much locks in the price for next year's rotation. Do I even need to mention how much it helps for a team to develop its own pitching?

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Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Wow. So that $14MM deal for Lee actually includes the 2006 modest bump in salary?

$2.75MM for next year is a steal. $3.75MM for 2008 is highway robbery (assuming he's still league average).

by cheech99 on Aug 9, 2006 10:26 PM EDT reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Yep, he gets an extra $300K this season.

by Ryan on Aug 9, 2006 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

I'm sort of tired right now but I do not understand how this makes sense for Cliff Lee. Unless he anticipates falling off a cliff (no pun) in the coming years, why would he go so low?

I'm not completely familiar with the situation-does he love Cleveland? I don't really want to look up the numbers, but my glances earlier in the season seemed to indicate that Cliff's peripherals were not great but that he could probably cobble together another season of ERA around 4 in 2007, and get some wins if the team is better. Isn't that the exact kind of pitcher that gets paid way too much every year either through arbitration or free agency?

I'm glad he signed, don't get me wrong. And there's always the argument that what's the real difference between 8 million and 16 million, but shouldn't we expect players and their agents to maximize the cash? Has Lee come close to do that here?

by afh4 on Aug 10, 2006 1:33 AM EDT reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

I don't think Lee's deal is particularly low for an arbitration eligible pitcher. Remember, Cleveland still has exclusive control over him, so he's not subject to the price escalation of the free agent market. To give a comparison, Jarrod Washburn was in a fairly similar position to Lee following his 2002 season (when he finished 18-6, ERA+ 138, in 206 innings). He signed a deal that gave him $3.8M/2003, $5.4M/2004, $6.5/2005. Washburn was the same age as Lee at the time, about the same service time, and was probably a little better than Lee. Bumping up those figures a little to adjust for baseball inflation, Lee's deal seems pretty much in line with arbitration market value.

by APV on Aug 10, 2006 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Look at it this way. Lee's deal guarantees him almost $9 million for the next two seasons -- $1 million signing bonus right now, plus 350K raise for the current season, plus $2.75M + $3.75M, plus the guaranteed buyout. That is probably more than he would have earned in arbitration for those two years.

In return, he gives the third year for $5.75 -- which may be less than he would have gotten, but then again, it may not be -- and the option year. I think this tough season may have taught Lee that you can't bank on being a Cy Young candidate every year. He may have believed the hype about himself in the offseason.

His agent could have gotten more off another team, but this was still a deal worth taking. This is where Shapiro shows his ability to look a guy in the eye and tell him he'll walk away -- as they did in the offseason. And this is where it matters that the team can say, to every core player, we can only go so far for any one guy.

by Jay on Aug 10, 2006 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

One thing that you have to consider is that were dealing with a pitcher and not a position player. Cliff's inability to go far past the 6th inning has always worried me and with a pitcher who doesn't seem to have a rubber arm, he has to consider his chance of injury. It's not to say that he hasn't left money on the table, but if I was a pitcher injury risk would outweigh a lot of those concerns.

by Ghostof WillHartley on Aug 10, 2006 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Shapiro plays chicken with the best of them. I'm still glad we have this guy in the front office, even if he does seem a little hesistant about dealing prospects to date. In fairness to Shapiro though, we've yet to see what he would do with prospects if we were in the thick of a pennant chase.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 10, 2006 12:43 PM EDT reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

We were in a race last year, and the FO didn't do much, but I don't know who (other than Broussard) I would have swapped out for a better part.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 10, 2006 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Last year on July 31 (the nonwaiver deadline), the Indians were 14.5 games behind Chicago. It is grossly unfair to accuse the FO of not doing a deadline deal to improve the team, because at the deadline, they were way behind and most people gave them no shot of getting close.

On August 31, the waiver deadline, they were 7 games out.

July 28, 2006 - The Andy Marte Era officially begins.

by woodsmeister on Aug 10, 2006 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Yep, I thought about reminding people of this in my original post. Technically, it was a little hard to argue that we were in the thick of the race on July 31st of last year. So again, I don't think we can accurately evaluate Shapiro's work at the trade deadline yet, with respect to prospects and dealing them for a stretch run.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 10, 2006 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

There was chatter after the July 31 deadline last year that the Indians were looking at acquiring Todd Walker. Walker would have possibly been the bat that the Tribe needed when seemingly everyone went cold. But we'll never know because Shapiro wasn't willing to pull the trigger.

One very important thing that this year brings out is that when you have the chance to make the post season, you take the chance to improve your team (via a trade) because there's no guarantee that the following year(s) will provide the same opportunity.

Everyone thought the Indians were a lock for the postseason this year based on last year's performance and look where they're at. John Hart was blamed for trading too many prospects for veterans at the trade deadline and Shapiro is possibly very skittish about trading his young talent because of this.

But there are times when you have to take the chance and see what happens. The Cincinnati Reds made many debatable trades in an effort to upgrade their bullpen this year but at least Krivsky is giving the team a shot to make it to the postseason, as they now are just a few games behind St. Louis for the division lead.

by SpringTrainingFun on Aug 10, 2006 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

You don't have any idea if the Cubs really wanted to trade Walker, and if they did, you don't know what they were asking for.

And anyway, the Indians didn't need any bat. They were the best hitting team in baseball during the second half.

The bats didn't "go cold" until the final week. I don't see how anyone can foresee that, and I don't see how Todd Walker would have helped the fact that Sizemore and Crisp totally forgot how to get on base that week.

The Indians went 38-18 after the trade deadline. Even if they'd acquired A-Rod and Johan Santana, you couldn't have hoped for a better record than 38-18. The only reason we think of it badly is because one-third of their losses were bunched up into one-ninth of the games, i.e., the final week. But on the whole, they were stupendous.

by Jay on Aug 10, 2006 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Not that I doubt you at all, Just surprised to hear that they were the best hitting team at the time...Boone, Blake, and Broussard,,,just makes it hard to believe.

by hans on Aug 11, 2006 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

You have to remember, the whole team was terrible for the first two months, they hit something like .200. Yet they finished as something like the fourth best offense for the season.

The Killer B's had something close to an 800 OPS after July 31.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2006 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

In my eyes, Broussard was never that bad. He was just used very improperly by Wedge. I always thought Broussard was a .270 hitter with 20-25 HR power...

by Tribe Alive on Aug 11, 2006 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Broussard? Used very improperly by Wedge? He was a full-time player for almost three years! It's nice to know what "you always thought" of Broussard, but back here in the real world, he was generally a .250 hitter with 15-20 HR power.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2006 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

I agree with you that Ben norm is around .250 and 15+ HR, that being said it is strange that we kept him around as long as we did, as a 1st basemen he did not add much on the def side either.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Aug 11, 2006 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Well, that's the notorious "upside" for you. I'm told that Broussard had the kind of swing that just makes scouts believe he can be a huge hitter. Not 20-25 HR potential, 30-40.

But he's not a great intuitive contact hitter, so he has to rely on his selectivity. It's hard to rely on your selectivity if you don't have a consistent approach at the plate, and Broussard had a tough time staying focused on that. And I think that basically was the story.

We kept him around and kept coaching him, hoping for improvement, as long as it was still inexpensive to do so. He got better this year, but I think it's obvious that Choo is not only the better talent, he may already be a better player. The fact that we'll have him around a lot longer and cheaper is just a bonus.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2006 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Relax Jay...I love this website but you are so quick to jump down peoples throats.

He was used improperly because he should have been used like he was this year. You saw what happened when he started against righties. He did great.

Also, Broussard is a career .266 hitter, not .250. And I should have said .270 hitter with 20-25 HR potential. I thought that was implied and obvious but I guess not.

My point was this...I liked Broussard and he wasnt that bad. Blake had a bad season and Boone was terrible (about as bad as you can be). The lack of Broussard to come up with a big hit or even big game did hurt the Indians last year and by no means do I think he did good but he wasnt horrible and showed decent potential.

But, I LOVE CHOO!!!

by Tribe Alive on Aug 11, 2006 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

you are so quick to jump down peoples throats

I'm sure what you meant to write here was, "Sorry I'm so totally sloppy with the facts."

Apology accepted.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2006 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

So the Indians were 37-12 before that final week...WOW!!! I forgot how dominate they were.

It is such ashame to think what could have been this year.

by Tribe Alive on Aug 11, 2006 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

How far out of the wild card were they?

by JulioBernazard on Aug 10, 2006 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Hopefully woodsmeister has that number quickly, but if memory serves, the wild card was held in the AL East at that point. I don't remember exactly how far back we were.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 10, 2006 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

I went to baseball reference and pulled up this data for what the standings looked like in the AL on 7/31/05. Here it is.

CHW 68 35 - .660 510 413
LAA 60 45 9.0 .571 480 421
BOS 59 45 9.5 .567 570 502
OAK 58 46 10.5 .558 504 450
NYY 56 47 12.0 .544 567 526
CLE 55 51 14.5 .519 481 443
MIN 54 50 14.5 .519 459 437
TOR 53 51 15.5 .510 513 444
TEX 53 51 15.5 .510 558 530

So we were 4.0 games out of the wildcard on 7/31, with both the A's and the Yankees in front of us. We were more in that race than I realized. Hmmm, have to rethink my stance a little I guess...

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 10, 2006 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

Maybe we can win about 20 in a row and make a run this year?!?!?!

They should have swept Boston and won 2 out of 3 against Detroit. And...they should have won the first 2 against the Angels.

Could they maybe win about 90 games?

by Tribe Alive on Aug 10, 2006 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Todd Hollandsworth and Franklin's Redemption

20 in a row wouldn't even make a dent. If the Tribe went 45-5 to finish the season, they probably would miss thte playoffs anyway.

by Jay on Aug 10, 2006 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, b/c it's not just what we do now!

Hello Jay and Tribe Alive,

Good point, Jay. It's because it's not just what we do - for our 20 wins in a row to make a dent and matter, the three teams ahead of us would have to lose 20 in a row or 20 out of 25, and by most accounts, that likely won't happen, so if we win 20 in a row and they each go 15-5, we only gain 5 games. In our position, that won't do much, except drop our draft position. So, winning 20 in a row won't help us as much as one might initially think.

Look back at 2005 - the only reason our sustained hot streak allowed us to come back was because the White Sox experienced their first and only sustained slump of the season; if they had played the consistent ball they had shown in the first half of 2005, we wouldn't have had a shot at making the postseason even with our sustained hot streak. There's two factors to making up ground and only one of them can we totally control. The other is mostly out of our hands, outside of direct competition against those teams in front of us.

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Aug 10, 2006 6:22 PM EDT reply actions