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Taking it?

We're getting word that Arthur Rhodes is in Philadelphia for a physical right now ... and all media sources have reported that a Rhodes-Michaels deal with the Phillies is contingent on moving Crisp to Boston. Did the Red Sox and Indians close the deal in principle yesterday and manage to keep a lid on it?

Paul Hoynes adds a few tidbits.

Needed a fresh thread anyway, right?

UPDATE: AP is reporting the Rhodes-Michaels deal is done, pending physicals. [Ryan]

UPDATE: Ken Rosenthal:

The Sox and Indians are close to completing their much-discussed, multi-player trade in which the Sox will acquire Crisp to be their new center fielder, FOXSports.com has learned.

[snip]

The exact particulars of the Red Sox-Indians trade are not known, but it is expected that the Indians will receive top third-base prospect Andy Marte and reliever Guillermo Mota.

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Re: Taking it?
Hmmmmm, intriguing to say the least. He wouldn't bluff the Red Sox like that would he?

Also, I'm all for the trade with or without the Crisp deal happening, I'd like to have Michaels play some instead of Blake (obviously can't be a platoon since they are both RH).

Btw Jay, we are anxiously waiting your response to the dccambridge thread, we all know you'll blow us away with your knowledge ;)

by talonk on Jan 27, 2006 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Sorry to disappoint you ... so far, looks like you're the guy to beat on that thread. Maybe I'll give it a real shot later, but I doubt I'd do very well.

by Jay on Jan 27, 2006 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Is it really a "3-way trade"? It seems like two 2-way trades; just one is contingent upon another.

by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2006 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Somebody posted something on SOSH that's probably bull, but made enough sense that it could have some credence.  

Something to the effect of...Look for the possibility of a Millwood-like clause getting placed into this deal where if Mota spends significant time on the DL in 2006, then Boston has to send a conditional prospect Cleveland's way. Apparently Shapiro/Wedge were so incensed at the Boston leak... allowing fan backlash to gather, that they torpedoed the physical and increased their demands for Delcarmen.  

Boston was never going toss in Delcarmen, but it established a better negotiating leverage for Shapiro, that Boston might agree to a smaller concession, security (in the form of another prospect, probably a lesser guy) for Mota's arm.

Whether this is legal, or how the language in the contract works, I have no idea.  

Any way you look at it, Shapiro and the boys are playing this game of Liar's Poker beautifully.  I didn't think it was possible, but I've garnered even more respect for this regime.  

by cheech99 on Jan 27, 2006 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
This is my first comment here at LGT. (spent three months trying to get this site to take my password. Is it because I use Firefox? I finally tied IE - ugh - and it worked)

Anyway, it's nice to have a General Manager that I have faith in. The thing about Shapiro is that he seems to have a long-term master plan and doesn't deviate from it.  He's very disciplined. I have no doubt that while he's working on the current deal(s), he has contingency plans in his mind for every possible roadblock in the current negotiations.

I think it's almost certain a deal of some sort will be made in the next week or two, and it might not include the players being discussed now.  I'm really getting antsy to see who we end up with (and who we lose).

That being said, I cannot say enough about Coco Crisp.  I watched him at Spring Training in 2003 and 2004.  He was humble, accessible and polite to fans.  He has worked hard on every aspect of his game.  I don't know what his upside is, but barring injuries, I know he will reach it.  If we trade him, I will be very sorry to see him go.

by LeftyCatcher on Jan 27, 2006 12:48 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Very good posting, I agree with you and will miss him also, he is very much like Omar Vizquel. Four years ago I spent about 30 min talking to Omar at spring traning, he is one of the nices guy around in or out of baseball.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I hear Andy Marte is very nice.  I believe one scout graded him a 60.

by Jay on Jan 27, 2006 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
so was Albert Belle
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Well he certainly was a bust in that respect.

by Jay on Jan 27, 2006 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Met hin once and that was enought for me.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
So bad guy equals bad, unproductive player? You do realize that Belle is a candidate for the Hall of Fame, right?

Kos

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I think he should be in the Hall, was the most feared hitter in baseball for five years, Do i like the guy "NO", do you think the sport writer will vote him in?
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
He's a borderline case, and I don't think he'll get in because he didn't hit 500 HR and was a total jerk. Does he deserve to get in? IMO, no, but I can certainly understand people who think he should get in.

Kos

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Joey/Albert was a jerk.  I wish I knew why. Whatever was the cause, I wish he could have overcome it.  Imagine what kind of career he could have had if he was an Coco or Pronk (and stayed healthy).  There's nothing worse than to see HOF talent wasted.

by LeftyCatcher on Jan 27, 2006 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Welcome!  I use Firefox and haven't had any problems.

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I am a big Coco fan, too. I wish he could play 1B, since he certainly puts up better numbers than Broussie.

I wish him well, and think he'll do really well with the BoSox (should this trade happen).

by JulioBernazard on Jan 27, 2006 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
comments from Fantasy Baseball
 We've heard rumors that the proposed swap contains contigencies on Guillermo Mota's health. If Mota spends a certain amount of time on the DL in 2006, the Red Sox may be required to send another prospect to Cleveland. Jan. 27 - 12:07 pm et
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Philadelphia Inquirer says the Rhodes/Michaels deal is done, pending the physical:

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/13728481.htm

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 1:52 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Did you guys hear the Indians might be trading Coco Crisp?

by Fios on Jan 27, 2006 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Rumors from the dwags from the PD board, who is generally correct:

-The "original" Boston deal (Marte/Shoppach/Mota for Crisp/Riske/Bard) is going to happen
-The Indians then are going to deal Westbrook for Kearns...
-And then will sign Jeff Weaver to a Millwood-type deal

So then you'd have an outfield of Kearns, Sizemore, and Blake/Michaels, plus Weaver replacing Westbrook in the rotation.

Take it for what it's worth, but this guy is usually correct.

by Ryan on Jan 27, 2006 3:17 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I'll take it! To me this satisfies Wedge and Shapiro's statement "We are always looking for ways to make the team better, both in the short and long terms." Or something equivalent to that.

by oxforddave on Jan 27, 2006 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I would feel pretty good about this. If all this does happen, and if Kearns hits .260-.270 with 25-30 homers, I think the Indians make out pretty good.

by vaugheyj on Jan 27, 2006 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
That's pretty much what I was hoping for, but I wish we could get Delcarmen included in the deal.

by Chiefroy on Jan 27, 2006 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Wow, Michaels and Kearns?  Weaver for Westbrook, ignoring money, is a wash to me.  I love it.

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Love it, love it, love it! If it goes down like this, Shapiro deserves an award.

Kos

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
That sounds like a geat deal to me. We get some long ball potential out of the OF.

by bhricik on Jan 27, 2006 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
O Please $DEITY let this be true!!

by mrich on Jan 27, 2006 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
That sure is a lot of "ifs" to happen in the strange world that is MLB.  But if it all went down, we would be flipping 15% of our 40 man roster very quickly.

Adding:  Michaels, Marte, Mota, Shoppach, Kearns and Weaver.
Deleting:  Rhodes, Crisp, Bard, Riske and Westbrook.

Taking any one of these deals by itself is not very exciting.  Adding all 4 of these transactions together will get the "emotional momentum (EM - waiting for the trademark)" of the general population rolling again.  

by KevinS on Jan 27, 2006 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Wow. No hint of any of this on the Boston stations so far.

by dgcambridge on Jan 27, 2006 3:36 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Done deal for Michaels, Maybe we are trading Jason Michaels to Boston, Na, just being my grumpy old self.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
we have got michaels and we are still workin for kearns man it sounds good to me...i hope we can get delcarmen too

by scc2 on Jan 27, 2006 4:24 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Dwags later wrote "the Westbrook/Kearns and Weaver stuff hasn't happened yet, just extremely hot right now".  

We all wondered what would happen to the $4 million-ish freed up in Rhodes/Riske/Bard/Crisp for Michaels/Mota/Shoppach/Marte.  Another $2.5 million freed up if we did Westbrook for Kearns?

Well, now we know.  It goes to Jeff Weaver.  

That's still a lot ifs.  But if it comes to pass, I'm just stunned.  Scott Boras going to do the 1-year dance with Shapiro again?  I guess he's the one GM he trusts to protect his client for this type of arrangement.  

by cheech99 on Jan 27, 2006 4:28 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Is this a spin by Shapiro, because he know the fans are going to be unhappy about the trades coming up today or tomorrow?
On the fans

"My job is to make decisions that are sometimes hard for the fans to digest. We are not looking to be judged in the minute, but to be right in the end. Hopefully, over time you build up some trust with your fan base. Hopefully, we already have. We can't afford to have the fans impact our decision making. We have to make sure that we made the right choices at the end of the year... We can't worry about the other teams either, we have to worry about building our team to the best it can be."

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
If all of this happens, this will be a pretty amazing sequence of moves - setting up the Indians both in the short and long-term (isn't Westbrook scheduled to make something like $6.5 million next year?).  I still ahve my doubts about Kearns, but maybe a new location will do him well.

by jdudas on Jan 27, 2006 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
As far as I can tell, if all four deals go down, they are actually something close to payroll-neutral.  Figuring $8.5M for Weaver and no cash changing hands, which is far from a given.

by Jay on Jan 27, 2006 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
so if no other trades happen, can we assume casey blake HAS lost his starting job, thereby making january 27th 2006 a city-wide holiday?

by brad on Jan 27, 2006 4:53 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
  1. Sizemore
  2. Michaels/Hollandsworth
  3. Peralta
  4. Hafner
  5. Martinez
  6. Coco
  7. Broussard/Perze
  8. Belliard
  9. Boone
Blake 1st, 2nd, LF, RF, 3rd
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
the line will look more like this i think if no other moves are made
1.sizemore
2.crisp
3.peralta
4.hafner
5.martinez
6.belliard
7.michaels/hollandsworth
8.brousard/perez
9.boone/blake

by scc2 on Jan 27, 2006 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
so the rotation would then be:

sabathia
lee
weaver
byrd
j. johnson

it's not intimidating but i guess there's no real difference between westbrook and weaver.

by ptb on Jan 27, 2006 5:45 PM EST reply actions  

Payroll considerations
When there rumors about weaver going to the tribe a couple of days back, I made a post about the payroll consequences of a possible move like this. (See Weaver diary). Simply, it looks more expensive this year, but quite a bit cheaper going forward (Boone and Weaver coming off of payroll). So it is definitely in the realm of possibility.

by oxforddave on Jan 27, 2006 6:15 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Do you guy know what your getting with Jason Michaels? He is a train wreck of an outfielder. When he finally gets the ball he doesn't know what to do with it. He is a slap-hitter with zero power. Yes, he hit .300 but a full season under his belt and that will drop to .240. It will be entertaining though to watch him scowl and argue with umpires over called strikes, pout with teammates , argue with teamates etc. Anyway what becomes of his public-service commitment in the Phila area in negotiated in his plea bargain for assulting a cop? At least Cleveland was smart enough not to give up much(Rhodes).

by Bill @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I think you're take on Michaels is missing quite a bit.  Last year his OBP was almost .400 (.399 to be exact) and his past few years suggest that this should hold up just fine, as should his batting average.  the last two seasons, in 299 and 289 at-bats, his average and OBP have both increased while his SLG has stayed constant.  For a 30 year old, this means his numbers will probably remain about constant, except that he should be closer to the 10 home runs he hit two years ago than the 4 from this year.  Also, while his home run power dropped, the fact that his slugging percentage stayed constant (.415) means he actually increased his total extra base hits.  Also, he cut his strike outs in half (80 down to 45), and if he can continue to cut down on K's or at least stay constant there, there is no reason to think he shouldn't be a very very solid #2 hitter, which is all he needs to be.  His OPS last year was actually slightly HIGHER than Coco Crisps, and that is who he is replacing in the lineup.  The off-the-field/personality issues notwithstanding...his production should be a fine replacement for Crisp, and considering what we are supposed to be getting for Crisp, that should be good enough for any Indians fan.

by chy924 on Jan 27, 2006 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Chy924
Hey Im not trying to depress you. The trade was garbage for garbage. Yes he improved his strikeout ratio from the year before (80 times in 299 at-bats. Michaels could not even supplant a tired 38 year old Kenny Lofton. Solid #2? Wow !
I thought you guys got him for pinch hitting. You really must be hurting to start him! Good Luck you never know....

by Bill @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 7:19 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Does this post count as trolling?  Not worth responding to.  

by dgcambridge on Jan 27, 2006 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I'm beginning to like this trade more and more but do not see how it will help us for 2006 we lose Riske for 2006.  
Coco age 26
1626AB 235R 467H 35HR 176RBI 114BB 220SO 54SB .332OBP .424SLB .287AVG

Michaels age 30
808AB 134R 235H 21HR 100RBI 114BB 182SO   6SB .380OBP .442SLG .291AVG

Bard age 27
495AB 45R 118H 13HR 61RBI 38BB 77SO .289OBP .370SLG .238AVG

Shoppach age 25
15AB 1R 0H 0HR 0RBI 0BB 7SO  .063OBP .000SLG .000AVG

Rhodes AGE 37
75W   55L  4.26ERA  598G  26SV  61SVO

Mota   AGE 32
22W   24L  3.61ERA  386G   7SV  20SVO

* Riske   AGE 29
17W   12L  3.55ERA  287G  16SV  29SVO

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 7:29 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
i really have to think that there's more to it than the boston/philly trade.  shaprio obviously has a PR situation to think about.  obviously they want to convey that they are focused on winning a title this year.  to accomplish this, it wouldn't stun me to make the weaver move using the extra cash they got from boston.  this would then raise the question of the fact that we would have six starters and trading one of them (along with a prospect who is out of options...brandon phillips?) to cincy for an upgrade in the OF would make sense.

it sounds like it makes sense for every side involved.  shaprio improves the pitching and the hitting this year, adds a tremendous prospect to the mix at a need position, and conveys to the fans that they want to win this year.  cincy gets a ground ball pitcher who would be a perfect compliment to that launching pad and a middle infielder who will take some of the heat off of ryan freel who is drunk every other minutes.

i would love to see it happen.  crossing my fingers.

BillyBeast

by willthompson @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 7:46 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
If they trade Kearns, they end up with Freel in LF and Aurilia/Womack at 2B.  I think it's pretty clear Brandon Phillips is done here and could actually be a valuable throw-in for the Reds in a Westbrook-Kearns deal (though they should be happy with just Westbrook).

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
If we could get Boston to overpay and throw in Delcarmen, then we could overpay for Kearns and throw in Phillips.  Cincy may be playing their cards just right this time.

by Chiefroy on Jan 27, 2006 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
mlb.com now reporting that the Michaels-Rhodes deal is done and is quoting a press release from Shapiro:

"Jason Michaels is a hard-nosed, tough player that complements our lineup extremely well," general manager Mark Shapiro said in a release. "He has always been a tough out while recording a high on-base percentage, and he has the ability to play all three outfield positions well."

by CaptainPenny on Jan 27, 2006 8:17 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
This trade needed to be done anyway, regardless of the Boston deal.  I didn't feel too good about Hollandsworth as our 4th OF guy and if we DO make the Coco trade, we need Michaels as a corner OF who can play CF when Grady gets a day off.

by Chiefroy on Jan 27, 2006 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Hoynes new reporting the Crisp deal is done. Says the deal is as advertised but with cash AND a player to be named later. Nothing about the PTBNL being a function of how Mota holds up. However, he doesn't reference anything official.

by CaptainPenny on Jan 27, 2006 8:24 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Posted this in the diary too - I'm sure the PTBNL is because our 40-man is full.

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
You would think after 50yr of following the tribe I would get use to disappointment and give up, but I'll just try to give this the best spin I can and convince myself that is the best thing in the long run.  So What if I  have another 50yr get a chance  seeing them win the big one.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 27, 2006 8:31 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Hey Fan in Texas,
   I've been following them just as long and I have to tell you that I never believed I would ever see them be anywhere near as good as they are now (or were in the 90's). I can remember sitting in freezing rain in May ('68 I think) with 389 other fans (that's right, 389 - count 'em) and watching a potential tying home run by Richie Scheinblum just die in the rain for the final out. And that was one of the better games I saw! For me, just being a contender is a real high! Anyway, I wasn't real excited about this deal either, but what the hell do we know.
   Re one of your earlier posts: I lived in Boston for 10 years and loved it. You must have been one of those guys that stopped for a red light!

by CaptainPenny on Jan 27, 2006 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
So, Jay and Ryan, I (and I'm sure others here) are looking forward to you telling us, "I told you so!!". Where can I get a Marte jersey??

by CaptainPenny on Jan 27, 2006 8:32 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
It's done.  The Indians website is reporting both trades, with quotes from Shapiro.  The deal with the Red Sox is the last one that Hoynes reported (money and a PTBNL).

by jdudas on Jan 27, 2006 8:52 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Well, it's good to know the details (Hoynsie is reporting them) finally.  I have to say I have some mixed feelings about this in that I liked all the guys we traded away.  Bard & Riske were the only members of the current team I actually saw play live  (Riske whilst I still lived in Cleveland and Bard on  a rehab assignment in a AAA game in Charlotte).

That said, I'm excited about what we got in Marte, Mota, etc.  Hopefully the PTBNL turns out to be a decent prospect.  If Shapiro can manage to pull off the Westbrook-Phillips/Kearns-? deal and sign Weaver I'll consider this whole shebang a glorious success.

by mjmarble on Jan 27, 2006 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I'm right with you mjmarble on the guys we traded and on the Kearns/Weaver additions.  Do we try to sign Weaver anyway, regardless of a Cincy trade?  We'd have to make room somehow(Phillips DFA?), but our rotation would look better with Weaver in it and Johnson as long man.

Here's a link I saw on the IndiansInk MB to a Shoppach interview from a year ago.  Thought you guys might like to read it:

http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13630

by Chiefroy on Jan 27, 2006 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
Phila Local Headline. Does this sound like The Phillies are going to miss Jason Michaels??

"In exchange for the 36-year-old lefty, the Phillies sent utility outfielder Jason Michaels to the Indians just a week after they signed him to a one-year deal worth $1.5 million and was sentenced to 100 hours of community service to settle charges that he allegedly assaulted a city police officer last July.

With Michaels finally out of the picture, manager Charlie Manuel will use last season's International League play of the year Shane Victorino as the club's fourth outfielder."

by Bill @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jan 27, 2006 9:55 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
It's never been a question as to whether the Phillies were trading from a position of stregnth.  With Victorio waiting in the wings, of course they were looking to move Michaels.  That doesn't, however, discount him as a potential platoon player with impact for the Tribe.  He has some very impressive numbers - even if only for limited playing time.  

This is in no way bashing Rhodes - but you got a guy who's got creeky knees and has some off field personal issues (which we certainly hope have resolved positively).  Is he a good pickup overall for you?  Yes - but just hope that he's there for you as much as you need/expect him to be.

I, for one, am completely satisified with this part of the trades.

by mjmarble on Jan 28, 2006 7:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Taking it?
I am ok with this part of the deal but I do not believe that michaels will be good enough to start for this team. I can't see a guy that couldn't beat out kenny lofton for playing time as being a full time player. He is 29 years old but acts like a 15 year old as well. Milton Bradley any one. I think as  a bench/role player he could be ok kind of like in the wayne kirby role. I really doubt shapiro will want him to start in lf or even rf. Notice how in the press conference he said Michaels can play all three outfield postions. That statement is a insite as to how they will use this guy. I have to think the Kearns deal is in the works. Some one mentioned the reds wanting shoppach becasue larue and that other stiff are not that good and they don't have any c depth in the minors. I believe that was a good point and if you trade westbrook and shoppach for kearns that would be a good deal. Signing Jeff Weaver a huge head case would be a poor plan. Instead why not let some of our minor league talent have a shot at the 5th spot and most likely you will not need a 5th starter until may any way. So until that time put that guy in the pen to get his feet wet or send them to extended spring training.

by tribeinne on Jan 28, 2006 11:59 AM EST reply actions  

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