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Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes

The bullpen is going to get revamped soon, according to GM Mark Shapiro:

Changes are coming. Injured right-hander Rafael Betancourt will most likely be activated from the 15-day disabled list sometime in the next week, and Shapiro said Thursday that other internal changes are being strongly considered.

"We've spent a lot of time in discussions, not just over the last 24 hours but probably the last three or four days," Shapiro said. "If we feel we can make a move that's going to help this team, we're going to do it. We're considering all moves, from changes in roles to changes in personnel in our bullpen."

The most obvious move to me is to swap Graves with Karsay, moving Steve into an eighth inning role, which would push everyone else down an inning. Rafael Betancourt isn't that far away from returning, so he'll help. There's other interesting options in the minors as well, like Ed Mujica, Andrew Brown, and Rafael Perez.

But the run prevention problems aren't caused entirely by the bullpen; when starters aren't able to go six or seven innings, they make the underbelly of the bullpen pitch with the game on the line. Last season, with a deep and effective bullpen, the Indians could win games when their starters went the "five and fly" route. This season, it's much more problematic if the bullpen has to pitch three or four innings.

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Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
For some reason that word "move" seems to suggest more than just shuffling some people in between Cleveland and Buffalo.

by APV on May 11, 2006 10:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
Perhaps, but the phrase "internal changes" suggests that it will all be within the organization.

by Jeffrey R on May 12, 2006 8:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps bye-bye Graves & Sauerbeck!
Hello everyone,

APV - maybe that means "bye-bye Graves and Sauerbeck."  I doubt Boone will leave this early, but if he keeps up his poor production for another month, he may go "bye-bye" also.

Ryan - while I agree that the weak starting pitching is exposing the underbelly of the bullpen, the bullpen underbelly last year was stronger, and likely would become stronger this year if we get rid of Graves and Sauerbeck - in my opinion, I think they would have trouble getting AAA hitters out, let alone MLers.  

If the underbelly is strengthened, then even if the starting pitching remains weak (which hopefully it won't because it needs to improve also,) the Indians' chances of winning even when the bullpen is called upon in the 6th and 7th inning would be better than they are now.

Like you said, bring up Karsay for the 8th, have Betancourt take the 7th inning, and work on Mota to see if they can figure out why his command is so poor.  I'd still count on Guthrie, Cabrera, and even Davis (though not as confident on him; he needs to stop overthrowing) to get some key outs too if need be.  

Outside of Wickman and his shaky appearances, I think Cabrera, Guthrie, and Davis have been pretty good for the most part, with two bad outings by Davis being the only real problems with that trio.

Again, that's why I think the future of the Indians is bright - arguably three of your best relievers this year all throw hard and are all on the younger side (27 or younger.)  Realistically, they could all be here for several years; they just need a bit more experience and refinement, but that is certainly understandable and acceptable in my opinion compared to watching Graves and Sauerbeck "stink up the joint" time and again.  Mota hasn't been much better lately either.

Add Karsay and Betancourt to the three youngsters and Wickman and the bullpen could be significantly improved, enough where leads can be held late in games most of the time.  

And several of the games we have lost lately (especially to the Royals) were due to the fact that we couldn't hold leads late in games and finish off the opponent.  Removing Graves and Sauerbeck and limiting Mota's appearances for now until we can get his command problems straightened out could help to rectify that problem in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and keep the "faith"!

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on May 12, 2006 12:14 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm available...
6'2" Lefty pitcher. Throw fastball, curve and split. Fastball tops out at 75mph. Currently pitching in 18A league of the San Diego Adult baseball league. Call me.  

by crazymoloh on May 12, 2006 1:00 AM EDT   0 recs

You'd probably be signed! :-)
Hello crazymoloh,

Chances are, you'd probably be signed because you're a lefty. :-)  Of course, lefties are always in demand!

Take care and keep the "faith"!

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on May 12, 2006 2:24 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
What about Tom Mastny?

by Joe. on May 12, 2006 8:24 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
the FO does not like him, he get's people out, but does not have great stuff.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on May 12, 2006 9:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I don't think its fair to say they don't like him - afterall they wouldn't have acquired him from the Blue Jays. Though, before anyone says it was just for Jonny Mac!

I think a better summary is that they do like him but because we have such a great stock of pitchers in the minors he's a little down the list. Doesn't mean to say he can't make it.

by Alchemist on May 12, 2006 11:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I posted this on my webpage about a week ago, but it's apt in light of today's PD article:

Jason Johnson has a career record of 54-88, from seasons spent with Tampa Bay, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and, most recently, Detroit. He has had one winning season in his nine-season career, when he went 8-7, in 1999, with Baltimore; but he only started 22 games that season and had an ERA of 5.46 with a 1.52 WHIP, above his career averages of 4.89 and 1.47. In four of the last five seasons, Johnson has made at least 32 starts, quite impressive for a guy battling diabetes, and ostensibly the reason Cleveland signed him in the offseason. Johnson was to be the fifth starter--not exactly a role with lofty expectations--but Indians management and a number of writers stressed that Johnson couldn't be judged by his career record since it came while pitching for teams that, well, stunk, and that signing Johnson was a great move since he was so reliable. If anything, Johnson was going to be a better fifth starter than Scott Elarton, last season's fifth starter, who signed with the Royals in the offseason.
    Oh how reality fails to meet expectations. Yesterday afternoon, against the Oakland Athletics, Johnson gave up five runs in the first inning and two runs in the second inning before he was pulled from the game. I applaud Eric Wedge for yanking Johnson so early in the game, but it was clear after four batters that Johnson couldn't find the strike zone (three walks in his two innings) with his regular pitches and so the only way he was getting the ball over the plate was by tossing batting-practice fastballs. After four batters the A's scored two runs and had runners on first and third. Cleveland hadn't recorded an out.
    Johnson got off to a good start this season, going seven innings and giving up no runs against the Twins in his first start. But this was back when everyone thought Minnesota was good and could hit; turns out Minnesota isn't good and can't hit. Since Johnson has given up at least four runs in his last three starts, and since the Indian's fourth starter, Paul Byrd, as given up at least five runs three times this season and has twice failed to make it through three innings, the Indians ought to consider new strategies for getting the most out of its starting rotation.
    Fortunately, I have a good idea (which actually isn't my idea; it's the idea a number of smart baseball analysts have had over the past few seasons, but I'm recommending it here, for Eric Wedge.).
    Right now the Indians are allotting 20% of the games to two pitchers who have ERAs of 7.11 and 5.08. That's 64-65 games this season and, at their current pace, 32 or 33 losses. Those 30-odd losses also mean increased stress on the bullpen, which translates to even more losses. But what if the Indians could distribute 32 of those games to its three other starters--Sabathia, Lee, and Westbrook--while acquiring an additional arm for the bullpen, thus reducing bullpen fatigue? This could mean 10-12 fewer losses, so instead of finishing with a pedestrian 85-77 record the Indians finish with an outstanding 95-win season, for example. Is such a thing possible? Why, yes. It's called a four-man rotation, and it was the standard for most of baseball until the late 1970s.
    Managing a four-man rotation is arguably more difficult than managing a five-man rotation, since a manager must pay very close attention to how many pitches his starters are throwing while tired (this is key: the number of pitches thrown does not matter; it's the number of pitches thrown when tired that damages a pitcher's arm and reduces his effectiveness.). Instead of allowing each starter 100-110 pitches each start, a manager might only allow 85-95 pitches. But one fewer starter means one more relief pitcher, and given that starting pitchers come at a premium trading a fifth or fourth starter for an above-average middle relief pitcher is entirely possible. And this is what the Indians ought to do. Trade either Byrd or Johnson to a team that is heavy in relief pitchers or in need of another starter. Take that relief pitcher and use him with Jason Davis as a long-relief man. Allow the big three pitchers to throw fewer pitches each start, but give the more starts. Of course, these pitchers are going to throw more innings for this strategy to work, and a bigger concern among managers than pitches per start is inning per season. But Eric Wedge need not worry. While all of the starters are going to throw more innings, a higher percentage of the innings pitched will come from the first few innings of a ballgame--when pitchers are fresh--than later innings--when pitchers are tired and are at the highest risk of injury and ineffectiveness. The number of innings pitched matters, but when those innings are pitched (start of the game, end of the game) matters, too.  The Indians will pitch about 1450 innings this season, and Wedge should do everything in his power to make sure that his best pitchers are pitching the most innings they can. Moving to a four-man rotation ensures that those pitchers will pitch more innings. And in so doing will enable the Indians to win more games.

http://jwitmer.googlepages.com/disappointmentzone

by osoc13 on May 12, 2006 1:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I think the FO's hopes for Johnson were that he would pitch innings and keep the game close enough to give a high scoring offense a chance to win games.  I think the pitching innings was the biggest factor, though.  By having a rotation 5-deep of guys capable of providing 6-7 innings a night it gives you a lot more flexibility and leverage in how use your bullpen.  Because Johnson, Byrd, and Westbrook have all gotten pounded early in multiple games this year, the bullpen has really suffered.  Young pitchers tend to work inefficiently when they first come up (throw lots of pitches, not a lot of innings) so I don't think a call-up for Sowers or Carmona would necessarily dig the bullpen out of the whole it has dug for itself.

by APV on May 12, 2006 1:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
  1. Using a four man rotation requires a good bullpen.

  2. Using a four man rotation also requires four good starters.

  3. I'm pretty sure we are not allowed to trade Johnson or Byrd until June 15.

  4. Do you really think anyone would give up a good reliever for one of them right now?

by Kos on May 12, 2006 2:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I seriously doubt we would go to a four man rotation. Ever. The investment $$ that goes into each player isn't worth the potential damage to the player from throwing that often (at least that is what the front office is going to say).

Let's say we did go with a four man rotation for argument's sake. Why trade Johnson or Byrd for a RP when they could more than adequately fill in as the long RP? If they are coming into the game, the deficit is probably more than 4 runs, so it (more than likely) wouldn't really matter how many more they gave up anyways. Heck if you wanted to, switch Byrd and Johnson every 4th start and have the other be the long guy that week. They seem to pitch okay every other start. Maybe that would work .... lol

Dean

by talonk on May 12, 2006 3:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I doubt we'd go to a four man rotation, too--but it won't be because of the money. We won't do it because it's against convential wisdom. There is safety (literal, financial safety) is following what other managers are doing. If Wedge went to a four man rotation and Cleveland kept falling back in the standings he'd likely get fired and would be stuck with a reputation of a wild manager, greatly reducing his chances of landing another major league managing job (although if he did it and it worked he'd be hailed as a billy bean-esque genius).

As for what the front office would say: there is little evidence to suggest that the pitchers would be at any greater risk of injury pitching every four days than every five. The statistical evidence shows that the primary reason pitchers get hurt is because managers leave them in games when their arms are tired. Certainly Wedge would have to pay closer attention to the health of each pitcher, but he's paid enough to take on that additional responsibility (in fact, doing what he can to help the Indians win is, if not explicit, implicit in his contract).

Moving either Johnson or Bird into the bullpen is interesting, but it probably couldn't be done on the fly. Or that's what managers and GMs would tell you. And alleviating the financial burdon of Bird's $14.5 million contract should factor into the decision.

But the point about them coming into the game when we are down four runs and it doesn't matter how many more they give up is a bit too defeatist for me. We have the best offense in baseball. Being down four runs isn't the much if there are a few innings left. We need our long RP to keep us in game because we can score enough to make it interesting.

by osoc13 on May 12, 2006 4:59 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
I will agree we have the best offense in baseball and "should" be able to make up a four run deficit. But from my recollection (not the best mind you), most of our high scoring outputs have come from the start of the game or when we are ahead already.

We have rarely come back from a large deficit, good offense or no. I think that comes from our hitters pressing, trying to do too much, etc. Look back at how bad we hit the final week of last season for an example. The hitters we have are very good, but they are mostly still young and prone to be overanxious.

Let's assume we brought in Johnson/Byrd in the 3rd (for the other mostly) because we are down 5-1 already. Even if both are on top of their game, they more than likely will give up at least 1-2 more runs over the next three/four innings (statistically, this is normal). No matter who we trade for or bring up from the minors for this long relief role is likely to do the same as that. Of course you'll get a few games of shutout 4 inning relief, but that would be the exception (am guessing 10-20% at best).

Now our offense could make up a 4 or 6 run deficit statistically over the last 6-7 innings. But the odds of them doing so is also a lot less. I think those odds get larger for our hitters because they do press. Look at all of the stranded leadoff doubles/triples the last week or so.

The only solution to our pitching woes, whether it be a 4 or 5 man rotation, is to have the starter go 6 innings. Until that occurs, our pen is going to get overworked, alot. And as good as they might be (they obviously haven't shown that yet), and even then it may not be solved until we try a few new arms out.

Ideally if your starter goes 6+, you can spread the last 9 or less outs among 4 good relievers (saving the other 2 for other spots). This means they would only throw two out of three games for an inning or less. That obviously is not happening.

Yes our failures have been focused in the pen, but our starters have contributed just as much. More of a hidden reason. I'm not sure a four man rotation would fix that because our starters would still need to go six, they haven't shown that ability on 4 days rest, so why would they magically be better on three?

by talonk on May 12, 2006 5:38 PM EDT   0 recs

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