Yankee Fans
In case anyone's hadn't heard yet - I really hate the Yankees. I've got what they usta call back home Irish amnesia about the NYC club. That's where you forget everything but the hatred. This week's play-offs have brought back into sharp focus why I hate them - it's their fans.
I've traveled a bit and have been in close contact with a number of baseball fan bases, LA, Houston, Pittsburg, Denver and now Philly. Everywhere I've gone there's been differences in detail but not kind. At the core of each and every one of them is a small boy - alternately hopeful/pessimistic, respectful/irreverent, admiring/disdainful, devoted/indifferent, funny/dreary, but in the end they all love their team unconditionally (kinda). My time spent on this site and Lookout Landing and Royals Review has only reinforced that impression.
But then there's the Yankee's fans - they are a different breed in and unto themselves. Bitter, condescending, ignorant without regard for any other baseball team or fanbase. A quick trip over to Pinstripe Alley will tell you everything you need to know about them. Bitchy, whiney, crybabies without any respect for themselves or one another. After almost half a century of listening to those strutting, obnoxious wit-nits belittle my team it's just great listening to them immolate theirs.
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Re: Yankee Fans
Re: Yankee Fans
If I'm not mistaken we played in the same bug filled environment.
Re: Yankee Fans
BUGS!!
by homelytourist on Oct 6, 2007 7:14 PM EDT reply actions
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All you guys can do is bitch about a large payroll (which helps you guys out by giving you luxury tax money.) I'm glad to see that all of you Indians fans come out and start talking big when you get a two game lead in the ALDS. Yankees fans are always out and showing their pride. No fairweather fans here.
As for Pinstripe Alley, there are an unusual ammount of vocal negative fans who bitch about stupid shit (mostly Cashman and Torre) which is to be expected from an intelligent and passionate fanbase hoping their team makes the best move.
We'll see how you guys handle the Bronx.
by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 7:36 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
CHUCK: Bitter, condescending, ignorant without regard for any other baseball team or fanbase.
SM: How many Rockies jerseys are there in the stands? None.
CHUCK: Bitchy, whiney, crybabies without any respect for themselves or one another.
SM: there are an unusual ammount of vocal negative fans who bitch about stupid shit...Yankees fans are always out and showing their pride.
CHUCK: After almost half a century of listening to those strutting, obnoxious wit-nits belittle my team it's just great listening to them immolate theirs
SM: As for teams like KC, the Pirates, the Rockies. No one in these cities cares about their teams until they are in the playoffs.
by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
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No fanbase gets bitched to more than the Yankees. Every single fanbase hates us and bitches to us. So don't talk to me about bitchy. I went through the individual teams because the person I was responding to seemed to think they have better fan bases than the Yankees.
Is anyone here really prepared to say teams like KC, Colorado, or the Pirates have a better fan base than the Yankees? And if any of you have ever met a Cubs fan, I shouldn't have to justify my statement to you about them.
by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
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Chuck doesn't "seem to think" KC has a better fan base than NYY -- he said it pretty explicitly.
by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
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by woodsmeister on Oct 6, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
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I don't know what's come over me, but I'm gonna be charitable and let that one pass.
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And yes, those teams have a better fan base. Maybe not as big but not nearly as insolent, sports ignorant and self glorifying as the majority of you sycophantic morons. So please, return to your excuses and bitterness and leave those of us over here cheering for our little midwest team alone.
And if anyone hates the Yankees more than Chuck, it is me.
Re: Yankee Fans
by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
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I take Pinstripe Alley as a representative sample of Yankee fans. Go there and tell me that nothing ignorant is written. The site moderator actually said that Game Two should have been called for bugs and had the further temerity to suggest that they effected the Yankee players more than the Indians. That's ignorant. So is the idea of trading Matsui for Santana or the suggestion that Bruce Froemming wanted the Indians to win or this quote "No bugs, Indians lose." That is ignorant and that is why I said that. Furthermore, I have yet to meet a Yankee fan who didn't have some of that entitled arrogance about him.
Re: Yankee Fans
You're gonna make some diehard Yankee fan scroll through all of LGT posts to find the dumb comments? Do you want to throw down that gauntlet? Because I'm just bored enough, I'll do it.
No bugs, Indian lose is not an ignorant comment. It is an opinion with some basis.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 7, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
Look, we lost the game, fair and square, and I'm not complaining about it, but you'll serve yourself much better admitting the obvious.
From SI's Tom Verducci, which was quoted by your own Ryan:
Great. Fausto did better with it than Joba. It's still not baseball.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 7, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
I don't know of any other team that takes on the responsibility of assisting the opposing teams players. The villian in the piece doesn't wear a Cleveland uniform - he manages the Yankees
Re: Yankee Fans
I have my disagreements with the site mods, but I don't think anything that was written about the bug situation was out of line. Not at all. I'm pretty sure we would have said similar things had our positions been reversed.
And the comment about the bugs affecting the Yankees more ... well, didn't they? That's not necessarily a claim of unfairness, but the bugs did seem to be bothering a few Yankee players more than any of the Indians.
Finally, for the love of God, please do not fall into the trap of inviting people to find stupid comments. We have stupid comments here, they have stupid comments there. You can make your own conclusions as to the overall quality of the fans on either site, but pulling out random samples is surely not the way to decide anything.
Re: Yankee Fans
I know, most of what I said was aimless rhetoric. I confess that when it comes to the Yankees and their fans I tend to lose my cool and say things that may not make sense.
Re: Yankee Fans
Which makes you precisely the sort of "dumb fan" you say Yankee partisans are.
The bug thing, which is what Amato, our admin, was calling out, was not a 'dumb' issue, or a question of whining. It was a legitimate beef. Whether or not Fausto pitches better in a blizzard than Joba does not mean the game should not have been stopped.
Calling Joba a choker speaks more to poor baseball analyis than an objective view of the game.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 7, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
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That was poorly phrased earlier, it is the way you act that annoys me. If someone was incessantly arrogant and illogical around you, you would find it taxing as well. Someone coming here and complaining is not conducive to the intelligent discussion in which we pride ourselves.
Again, I apologize for getting overly frustrated by the stupidity. I should expect it. If you want to have a discussion about baseball I'd be happy to. I think that you will find that there are knowledgeable fans here that enjoy the game.
Re: Yankee Fans
by LateInningRelief on Oct 7, 2007 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
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However, I should clarify. I do not contend that I have come in contact with a representative sample of Yankee fans, but the vast majority of the ones I've met meet my description of "strutting, obnoxious" and "bitchy, whiney"- with Mr. Steinbrenner leading the parade. Further up thread you'll note that a number of other LGT posters have chided me for being too hard on Yankee fans in the specific, although not in the general. For this mischaracterization, I apologize.
I believe that you can learn from anyone - anyone, even bad examples. And this I've learned from many Yankee fans: how not to be a good baseball fan. Thanks
Re: Yankee Fans
Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK ON THAT 0-1 PITCH
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008.
by Gradyforpresident on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:20 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
What ever!
Playoffs! LGT resident kineisologist
by E5 on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:27 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
They're pressing - Wedge needs to calm the troops down.
by District Hooligan on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:29 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
Oh Jesus.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008.
by Gradyforpresident on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:52 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
I am going to puke.
Fuck you, Andy.
by afh4 on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:59 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
I hate this.
by gte619n on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:08:00 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
fuck that shit in the ass.
by emil minty on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:08:06 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
That totally sucks
by new zealand tribe fan on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:08:14 PM EDT
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Re: Game Thread: October 5, 2007
And fuck Clemens. Seriously, fuck fuck fuck Clemens.
by afh4 on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:08:19 PM EDT
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by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
People here know and understand the history of the game better than almost any city.
False. People in New York know and understand the history of the Yankees, and only the Yankees. Generally they know squat about anything else, because nothing else matters.
Re: Yankee Fans
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
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Now, if you want, I can offer this as a general example towards our sense of history. As a product of the teams continued success throughout this century, Yankees fans have been "plugged in" to baseball at a higher and more consistent level than any other fan base. This is just a fact, I'm not trying to gloat about winning. Yankees fans have had more reason to care than any other team. As a product of this, it is very reasonable to assume that their knowledge is quite extensive throughout these time periods.
Now, since I now know how you guys opperate, I'll further say this doesn't mean that all Yankees fans can go work for the Elias Sports Bureau. But this does imply that the Yankees fans know and understand the history of the game.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
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Yankees fans have a sense of history, but they know nothing of the Big Red Machine, the many great St. Louis teams, the Reggie Jackson A's, even the modern Braves, just to name a few.
We know all about Joba, but until a few days ago, what did you know about Rafael Perez? Surprise!
by Jay on Oct 7, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
I will grant you this, however. There are probably MANY more unknowledgable Yankees fans than there are Indians fans. This is a product of the Yankees "bandwagon" status. But I'm not talking about the new 20 year old Yankees fan from Southern California. I'm talking about people who have been paying attention to baseball and watching the yankees forever. This is the dominant portion of our base, and I dare say it is larger than most (mostly as a product of the size of our city.) To recap, we have more stupid fans than any other team due to bandwagon fans (except maybe the Sox), but we also have as many if not more die-hard fans as any other city.
And yes, ask any yankees fan who was alive during the Big Red Machine or Reggie's A's (I was not), and I'll be you all of them who really care about the Yankees know all about those teams.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jay on Oct 7, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
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If the Yankees come back to win, you won't see any Yankees fans go to their boards and talk shit to them. However, if Yankees do lose, we can expect much trash talking on Pinstripe Alley. How do you explain this? A lack of class from you folks.
by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
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Its easy to show pride when your team has made the postseason the last 13 years and the World Series in 6 of those 13 seasons. So how prideful were these Yankee fans when their team, how do you say, sucked donkey balls?
The last four losing seasons for the Yankees were - 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992. How did they fare in attendance?
89 - 5th place AL east, 2.1M attendance, 8th in AL
90 - 7th place AL east, 2.0M attendance, 8th in AL
91 - 5th place AL east, 1.8M attendance, 11th in AL
92 - 4th place AL east, 1.7M attendance, 11th in AL
To believe that the Yankees have the largest or second largest cadre of fairweather fans is nuts. Personally, that ok with me. The more people that love and watch baseball the better.
p.s: I don't hate Yankees fans by any stretch of the imagination. I play baseball with some New York transplants down in SoCal. They are what I believe 'true' Yankee fans to be. They value the blue collar player. The value the never-say-die attitude. They admire players like Granderson and Sizemore. Above all, they are true baseball fans.
The people who bother me are the little shits who crawl out of the woodwork in Buttfuck, IN and show up at a bar cheering on the Yankees with no earthly clue about the game, its traditions, etc....
Re: Yankee Fans
Ok. Clearly I meant to say - To believe that the Yankees don't have....
Re: Yankee Fans
It's the Yankee fan I see outside of NYC that irritates me - but then you've said it much better than I could.
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And of course when the game is in the 11th, a guy about 4 rows in front of me wants to know "what's the score of the Yankee game?" He sees me and my son with Indians shirts on, but he wants to know the score of the "Yankee" game, not the "baseball game".
I took great pleasure five minutes later in reporting the final score of the Yankee game to him.
Re: Yankee Fans
by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
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by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 6, 2007 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
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Look at how you've tried to differentiate Yankees fans from their peers: They don't bitch -- at least, not like Phillies and Cubs fans bitch. (Having lived four years with Chicago residents, I'm inclined to agree, but that's not the point.) They buy lots of Yankees merch. They have a history -- look at all the championships!
I think you're just making this up. You're choosing characteristics that you think Yankees fans have, and THEN calling those characteristics "true." And it just so happens that the characteristics you choose to define true fandom -- visible merchandise, number of championships, age of franchise -- will have the effect of making Yankees fans truer than fans of any other team.
There's no such thing as a true fan, not the way you mean it. There are, of course, people who really enjoy watching the game. Look again at Chuck's post. Edit out the gloating, and what's he really saying? Yankees fans aren't fun. They blatantly dismiss competition -- read the Post playoff previews to get an idea of what I mean. They do insane things like demonize the league's best hitter because opposing teams pitch around him. They try to win arguments about baseball by saying, "Count the rings." In short, by demanding championships, rather than by enjoying the road to them, Yankees fans make the game less fun.
And we're here for fun, right? If not, what did you come here to say?
by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
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by fleerdon on Oct 7, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
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If you don't think my characteristics (although broad and incomplete) are a good measure of a teams fandom, then what is? Are there any true measures? Maybe not. But if there aren't, then how the hell can you guys keep ripping on Yankees fans?
And also, dont ever think what the Post says is anything close to the sentiments of yankees fans.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
US: Yankees fans are jerks!
YOU: But we're true fans!
US: Who cares? You're jerks!
Being a baseball fan is a completely irrational thing to do, stillmonster. If you yourself never watched another inning of Yankee baseball, never went to another game, never bought another jersey, the Yankees would lose maybe a few C-notes of profit over your lifetime. Your personal support is totally irrelevant to the success of the team.
You want me to pick something that makes a good baseball fan? It's realizing just that -- they don't actually matter to the team, and that nobody else really matters to their teams. (I will make an exception for any season ticket holder of the Florida Marlins.) And once you get that, what's left? Well, enjoying the games as they come, for one thing -- appreciating the talent of the players, realizing that the very best team in the game, no matter what jersey it wears, will only win 60% of the time. In short, good baseball fans get that they're not special, but they don't enjoy the game in spite of how un-special they are: they enjoy the game because of how un-special they are. It provides that perspective you've been talking about.
That never seems to be enough for Yankees fans. It's NOT ENOUGH that Alex Rodriguez is the best hitter alive and is the reason the Yankees made the post-season in the first place; he needs to CARRY THE TEAM TO CONSECUTIVE CHAMPIONSHIPS! It's NOT ENOUGH that Derek Jeter's an okay-ish shortstop who hits like crazy; he needs MULTIPLE GOLD GLOVES to show how great he is! It's NOT ENOUGH that the team went out and bought a bunch of great pitching prospects; we need ROGER CLEMENS TOO! It's NOT ENOUGH that Joba Chamberlain's a good pitching prospect who advanced quickly; he needs to be FUTURE HALL OF FAMER! And if we lose to the Indians because we don't have enough pitching, it's NOT ENOUGH to go overpay a bunch of relievers this off-season; we need JOE TORRE FIRED!
See what I mean? There's this constant insistence among Yankees fans that they're qualitatively different since their team is the Yankees, and they have a right to DEMAND superiority. It's infuriating because the only thing that makes the Yankees special is George's shipping money. Hack $80 million off that payroll, and the Yankees are the Giants of the East Coast.
by fleerdon on Oct 7, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
It's funny, because if you guys understood the dynamic between Sox fans and Yankees fans (and Yankees/Mets for that matter) you might feel slighty differently about us being obnoxious. In these instances, Red Sox (and Mets) talk MUCH more shit to Yankees fans (and where shirts like A-Rod Swallows, Jeter has AIDS, etc.) whereas Yankees fans refrain from this shit. Sure, we defend our team when we have to, but we rarely engage opposing fan bases in arguments. We wait until we are being attacked (which happens quite often) and then defend our team.
I would say, however, that your second to last paragraph is, to a large extent, the unfortunate truth. There is no doubt Yankees fans are spoiled, and show some of the effects of this. But to some extent, what are we to do about this? If we have 20 million to burn, and need a SP, why not go out and get Clemens? I wished he did better, but those 20 million aren't mine, and he certainly helped the team out.
Those 20 million, however, isn't shipping money anymore. The Yankees have the most money because of being in the biggest market, drawing the most fans, and having a huge television network. There are owners richer than George, but they choose not to spend their money. The yankees have built an enormous empire, and thus have lots of money to spend.
(and also, I dont think any yankees fans think jeter is actually a good defensive shortstop. The worst range ever, but thats a different story.)
I like your post a lot though, it's the most reasonable one I've read so far and fairly presents some of the problems with the yankees.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
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Frankly, you're out of your depth on this.
I think you'll find that almost all extraordinarily successful businesspeople, including possibly every major league owner, is successful in part because they don't spend money recklessly -- that is, they don't make a financial commitment without an understanding of how the money is going to come back to them. Even Tom Hicks had an elaborate sports complex development scheme in which he rationalized that A-Rod's contract was a major part. He was wrong, but that was his plan.
The point being, no owner spends significant money out of his pocket "generously" to pay players, and that certainly includes Steinbrenner. The Yankees' revenues, and the year-over-year increase in the value of the team as an asset, provides all the money to pay those players. It isn't Steinbrenner's personal money, it's the Yankees' wealth.
The "enormous empire" is something that happened to the Yankees, not something anyone built. Turner started the first regional sports network more than 25 years ago, and MSG was the original standard-bearer in New York City. The value of broadcast contracts went through the roof over the last fifteen years, and it was at that point that the Yankees payroll truly exploded.
Deciding to start their own network rather than receiving licensing fees from MSG was hardly an original idea; it was just a license to print money. So you can rationalize it all you like, but the fact is that Yankees management has had to do almost nothing to acquire their financial might -- and certainly nothing particularly clever.
Re: Yankee Fans
by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
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The Yankees had a similar season this year, but they won 94 games. The difference is certainly not achievement or intelligence or heart or tradition or anything uniquely Yankee; the difference is simply money, the depth that giant piles of money can buy, like squandering $19 million on Roger Clemens.
In this way, the Yankees purchase a playoff slot every year, while the other teams have to compete for the other seven spots. What the Yankees do isn't building a sports team, it's playing with a trust fund.
I don't blame Yankees fans for it, I blame them for being smug and ignorant, which begets your false pride in a team that merely purchases near-greatness rather than competing for it, on or off the field.
There's nothing for you to be proud of. I would be embarrassed to be a Yankees fan, embarrassed to be playing the underdog to a team like the Indians. I'd be saying, "Even if we win, there's nothing to be proud of here."
Hell, I felt that way even when we were mugging the Twins back in 2001. But you have no shame. If you understood how this game really works, you'd be ashamed of the Yankees.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
This is almost as sanctimonious as the dumb diary you left on Pinstripe Alley. Your last 3 paragraphs are beneath somebody purporting to be a reporter, let alone a moderator.
We understand how this game works just fine. The Yankees have been playing long into October for much of the last century, so NY fans have had a little extra study hall.
Here's how our vaunted $19M man performed this year: 6 wins, one more than our rookie, Phil Hughes, who missed 2/3 of the season in the minors and w/ injuries.
Here's how our 2008 rotation looks: Wang, Pettitte, Kennedy, Chamberlain and Hughes--all of them home-grown.
Here's the core that won our most recent batch of rings: Pettitte, Jeter, Rivera & Williams--all homegrown.
Deal with it, dude. You want to be a baseball guy? Oversee a blog and get to talk on the radio? Try losing the sanctimony, giving props to the other team when they deserve it and leaving the flaming to the bleacher bums on your board.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
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by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
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As a site admin, that is a clear case of douchebagary, as defined by the Jon Stewart Dictionary. It's a bleacher bum act.
The point w/ respect to the Clemens' signing is that you guys were using that as evidence of how we buy our way into the playoffs when, in fact, Clemens has been a bit of a bust. In fact, the turnaround, which was rather inspiring, came in large part due to key contributions from our new guard: Joba, Hughes, Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy & Shelley Duncan.
I'll give you that A-Rod has been huge for us, but Texas is actually picking up 1/3 of his salary. We cut salary this year, and as Cashman takes more and more control from Steinbrenner, we're going to continue to focus on homegrown talent.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
You're being obtuse about the Clemens signing -- which was only an example, not the whole argument.
The point is not that the $19 million -- actually $26 million including marginal luxury tax -- allowed you to contend, which it (probably) didn't. The point is that that deal was totally do-able by the Yankees and unthinkable by at least 26 other teams.
The point is that that $26 million is just one part of a massive financial advantage that is far greater than you have allowed yourself fully to grasp. I understand why you're blocking it out, because the truth is awful, and here it is:
The Yankees spent $280 million on player compensation this year.
The median for all other teams was $82 million.
That is the real difference.
That is your team.
That is how they win.
That is the only way they win.
Deal with it.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
That's not the issue. The issue here is how somehow that paints Yankee fans as 'Bitchy, whiney, crybabies without any respect for themselves or one another.'
This comment was the work of a good admin:
I have my disagreements with the site mods, but I don't think anything that was written about the bug situation was out of line. Not at all. I'm pretty sure we would have said similar things had our positions been reversed.
And the comment about the bugs affecting the Yankees more ... well, didn't they? That's not necessarily a claim of unfairness, but the bugs did seem to be bothering a few Yankee players more than any of the Indians.
Finally, for the love of God, please do not fall into the trap of inviting people to find stupid comments. We have stupid comments here, they have stupid comments there. You can make your own conclusions as to the overall quality of the fans on either site, but pulling out random samples is surely not the way to decide anything.
This comment was the work of somebody displaying symptoms of serious douchebagary:
There's nothing for you to be proud of. I would be embarrassed to be a Yankees fan, embarrassed to be playing the underdog to a team like the Indians. I'd be saying, "Even if we win, there's nothing to be proud of here."
Hell, I felt that way even when we were mugging the Twins back in 2001. But you have no shame. If you understood how this game really works, you'd be ashamed of the Yankees.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
It's for your brain to reconcile how the same person could make both of them. Maybe the second one isn't as off-base as you'd like to think.
I really did feel that way about the Twins in 2001. The Indians were flush with revenue, it seemed like we were just beating up on them. I didn't like winning with unfair advantage, and that's one difference between you and me.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
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Okay, but don't say I didn't give you an opening. I can now rest my case.
You're not an idiot, so you wouldn't fall into the Urban Dictionary definition of douche
But you seem to exhibit all the traits of douchebaggery
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
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I assume I don't have to answer your question now about the personal insults, right?
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
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by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
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- When the facts are on your side, pound the facts.
- When the law is on your side, pound the law.
- When neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound the table.
It's a shame, because I actually was totally digging the "Yankee Ombudsman" thing, the opportunity to have a dissenting view from someone who seemed not to be a douchebag at all.
But ... you just couldn't handle it.
Oh, well. The search for a non-jackass Yankees fan in this forum fan lives on.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
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Here's the deal:
My parents were born and raised in Cleveland. Since I grew up in Louisville, with no professional sports teams, I was brought up a Browns fan. (And still, despite my best intentions, I continue to root for them.) However, in my youth (in the 80s), the Indians were so bad, my father didn't even try to indoctrinate me into Indians fandom. As a free agent, I picked the Yankees, which was reinforced when I moved to the Big Apple.
I have a friendly rivalry with my parents now that the Tribe is going head to head with the Yanks. And if the Tribe wins, I'll congratulate them for their good luck. By the same token, I have plenty of friendly exchanges with Allen Chace, B Cap, tommy and others over at OverTheMonster.
In my humble view, you are taking the level of discourse here down a notch or two, starting with the item you came over and posted on our site, which, in a true measure of the quality of our posters, got a free pass, even after you continued to pound the table on it.
I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em, Jay. This type of diary entry is the purview of bleacher bums. Taking part in it and, in many ways, leading the conversation about how Yankee fans are smug and arrogant is simply a bit louche.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
You don't know what "pound the table" means. Both in this discussion and in my post at Pinstripe Alley, I stuck to the facts and never launched any personal attacks, which is more than you can say. You didn't like what I had to say? Fine. But that's all you get.
You grew up in Louisville, your parents were from Cleveland, and you root for the Yankees. That tells me everything I really need to know about you as a sports fan.
You don't have to like it, and I could not care less if you do or you don't.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
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I have lived in NYC for 15 years. I think I'm allowed to root for my hometown team.
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
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What exactly does that tell you? Do you believe that you have to be from the city to root for the team? Does it matter that his parents didn't care about the Indians? Does that make him not a "true" fan.
Earlier, I tried (generally) to give some qualifications for being a "true" fan because you guys accused Yankees fans of being ignorant, unintelligent, etc, and was met with an aggressive backlash. But now you go around qualifying what it means to be a good fan. You know nothing about this guy, and YOU are the one who is ignorant, and jumps to conclusions. You, along with many others on this thread, cannot get past your innate hatred towards the Yankees. You immediately dismiss anything that we say, and blame it on arrogance, a feeling of self-entitlement, or ignorance.
And I think the class of (atleast some of) the moderators on this blog has already been determined. I came here to defend my Yankees with opinions and views quite contrary to this blogs views, and had my signature changed to something stupid. Now, I'm a big boy, and certainly don't care on a personal level if my signature gets changed. But don't you think a good principle for accepting diverse discourse as a moderator is to not censor, discriminate, or belittle those who wish to engage themselves in the conversation? Belittling those who come to engage their opinions tells me all I need to know about YOU (or whoever the moderator was that did it.)
by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
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by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
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But I'm interested in the discussion. And I'm cutting you some slack (and that other guy even more) because I know that even valid criticisms -- of both the team and its fans -- are going to seem hurtful to you.
I don't feel great about that, but I do think it's the product of an honest conversation, and nobody's making you stick around for it.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
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Not their superior ballplaying on the field. Their luck in beating the Yankees. Becuase only a lucky team could beat the Yankees, not a superior one.
Please, continue to tell us how not smug and not arrogany you and other Yankees fans are. Apparently, you have not learned what Molly Ivins calls "the first rule of holes - when you are in one, stop digging."
Re: Yankee Fans
by LateInningRelief on Oct 8, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
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So what facts are these you speak of?
by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
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So don't give me this bullshit that the Yankees work within a completely different framework than everyone else. Sure, we are still the richest, but it aint like other teams aren't spending hundreds of millions of dollars.
Also, look at the Knicks or NY Rangers (of 3 years ago) if you want examples of how the highest payroll in the league DOESN'T buy you a playoff spot, even when the playoffs are twice as big in those leagues.
by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
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But the Yankees' financial advantage is yet another level above them. The Yankees spent almost $280 million this year on payroll, negotiating rights and luxury taxes. That is far beyond any other team.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
Sure, dismiss this comment as arrogant, stupid, and an example of our self-righteousness. But the truth is, the Yankees actually help the smaller teams more than the other teams with the high payrolls. As long as the Yankees don't win the WS, why should you care how much their payroll is? Shouldn't you be more worried about the collective increase of payrolls across the board? If you look at the numbers in a relative manner, other teams have increased their payroll significantly more than the Yankees have in recent years and it is likely they will again decrease their payroll going into next year, much like they did this year.
by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
I'm sorry to have made any references earlier to Yankee fans, in general, as smug, arrogant, ignorant or any of the above. It has obscured my point on the Yankee's spending, which might have been an interesting topic for discussion.
by DoppelgangerJay on Oct 8, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
If current luxury taxes and revenue sharing were enough to offset the Yankee advantage, then all player payrolls would be about the same. As you can see, the effect so far is that the Yankees' $198 million advantage is cut down to "only" a $130 million advantage. I guess you could call that progress.
Furthermore, the Yankees' spending has an inflationary effect on all player salaries -- this is not only common sense and basic economics, it's actually true! For all but a handful of teams (the ones that aren't even trying to spend money), that inflationary effect totally eliminates any possible benefit that revenue sharing and luxury tax provides.
So basically, any fan of another team who is rooting for the Yankees to spend more would have to be insane.
by Jay on Oct 8, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/
The Indians (and Red Sox) are the playoff teams with history, being original members of the American League.
[By the way, I like your new footer better than the old one.]
by Fiddlesticks on Oct 7, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
this odd mix of superior swagger and ignorance. obsession and nonchalance.
though, think about it, it isn't that suprising:
half of them aren't from the new york area, so they are purely front-runners. there's truly no other explanation or justification for somebody anywhere north of westchester, south of mid-jersey or west of the delaware water gap to give a shit about that team.
the other half of them are from the new york metropolitan region, which means they get to choose between two big payroll clubs. remember the mid-80s to the mid-90s? mets fans were everywhere, and the new york-area yankee fans were almost invisible.
in either case, their affections are more often than not fickle, and their knowledge weak. they're around to win but not to suffer, and their sense of history is non-existent.
(just like the cubs) i know so old-time yankees fans, and i love them to death. but it is an awful small segment of the fanbase in general. i'd listen to old-school fans heckle me and the tribe all day long, with pleasure. but the rest of them? they're the reason i find that team so damn odious.
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by judahda on Oct 7, 2007 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
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But the strangest thing happened while I was watching Game 1.
I met a true Yankee fan.
I mean a guy who knew all about the team, was wearing not just a hat, but a jersey, too, and hadn't come to harass me and be anti-Tribe, but to share a view of the TV to cheer for the Yankees.
It was both an overwhelmingly positive and negative experience.
I was gladdened to learn that it is possible to be both nice and a Yankee.
I was terrified that I sort of liked a Yankee fan.
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by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
Guy: Who's pitching for us?
Me: Chein-Ming Wang
Guy: Who?
Me: Wang. Chein-Ming Wang.
Guy: Oh. [pause] Go Yanks! We're gonna ** you! You guys ****.
Re: Yankee Fans
While I do begrudge the fact that they have more money than God, I always love a good baseball story and Joba is certainly one of them. Read about him in this week's SI. Hate the Joba-is-God anointers. Don't hate the Joba.
Re: Yankee Fans
by Jay on Oct 6, 2007 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
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I think that's my word of the series.
by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
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I'll be careful, wouldn't want to perpetuate our racist image.
by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
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by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2007 9:05 PM EDT reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions
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If there's one thing LGT is known for, it's that discourse is not allowed.
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However, if we beat you (or the angels, or anyone else) there is almost no chest bumping. Whereas ANY team that plays the Yankees bumps its chest considerably if they win. Explain that.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
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The Yankees wield an economic club over the rest of the AL. It is offensive to anyone with a genuine interest in sport, because the basis of any real sport is a level playing field.
And let's be real clear here, that economic advantage is not one that has been earned, which in some sense would just be the American way -- though even that pure-capitalist mentality has no real place within the sporting ethic. It's just that the industry evolved in such a way that the natural advantages of larger markets have become exaggerated beyond all reason.
So when the Yankees lose, everyone celebrates. The Indians two victories are not just being celebrated here, they're being celebrated on Orioles forums, Red Sox forums, Tigers forums, Twins forums, Athletics forums, everywhere.
And also because of how Yankees fans are. And it may be that Yankees fans aren't really any different than other fans; they may be only equally as boastful (and obnoxious and ignorant) as any other fans. But since the Yankees' success has been earned on a profoundly un-level playing field, the resentment is greater, and the pride of Yankee fans is less appropriate.
I mean, what is it, exactly, that you're really proud of, anyway? We all root for laundry, but Yankee fans actually root purely for accumulated money.
by Jay on Oct 7, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
For the first time, I consistently hear Red Sox fans complaining about their big signings. They recognize they operate within the same system as the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, (and maybe Giants, even.) You don't seem to hate these teams. There must be something else.
No longer does this "un-equal playing field" argument work, because there are other teams out there than enjoy the same benefits as the yankees but aren't hated for it.
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
Actually, some folks now hate Red Sox fans more than Yankee fans.
Second thing is, most of those other teams aren't good enough to even deserve our hate. They just get our scorn. And their fans don't have the same dopey-rich-kid sense of entitlement, of course, because they haven't done very well.
Third thing is, the Yankees' financial advantage is in a whole other category even from those other teams. Those teams have a huge, huge advantage over the average major league team, and the Yankees have an additional huge, huge advantage over even those teams.
by Jay on Oct 7, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Yankee Fans
But every sport has a team like this - Dallas Cowboys, LA Lakers, Duke basketball, Notre Dame football. Each one of these teams has thousands of bandwagon-jumping fans all over the country that have no connection to those teams. And fans of the local teams get annoyed by these people who know next to nothing about "their" team yet brag about their accomplishments and rub it in the face of others just to make themselves feel good.
Notre Dame is the best example. I'm a OSU fan, of course, but I hold nothing against other traditional powerhouse programs such as Alabama, Oklahoma, and USC. Now, I obviously want those teams to lose if they're ranked ahead of (or close to) Ohio State but that's just so my team can move up in the polls, not that I have anything against them. If Alabama is ranked 20th and playing another team, I'm not really rooting against them. But Notre Dame is a different story - no matter what their ranking, if you don't love them than you hate them and want them to lose every week. Notre Dame, like the Yankees, has fans across the country with no connection to the team. Their fans think that they're entitled to win in the same manner than Yankee fans do. And the rest of the country hates them because of it.
Re: Yankee Fans
Re: Yankee Fans
"His job is on the line," the owner was quoted in Sunday's editions of The Record. "I think we're paying him a lot of money. He's the highest-paid manager in baseball, so I don't think we'd take him back if we don't win this series."
Torre was hired before the 1996 season and led the Yankees to four World Series in his first five seasons but none since.
[...]
Steinbrenner also criticized umpire Bruce Froemming for not stopping play when insects invaded the field during Game 2 in Cleveland on Friday. [...] Froemming called it "just a little irritation." Steinbrenner profanely dismissed Froemming's explanation.
"He won't umpire our games anymore," Steinbrenner said.
Team owners do not direct umpiring assignments, and the 68-year-old Froemming -- the longest-tenured umpire in history -- is retiring after this season.
The Yankees complained to baseball commissioner Bud Selig.
"(Selig) just said, 'That's in the umpires' hands.' ... It was terrible. It messed up the whole team, (Derek) Jeter, all of them," Steinbrenner told the paper.
It's just impossible to not hate the Yankees as long as this guy is in charge.
Re: Yankee Fans
by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jay on Oct 7, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
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You know, your continued insistance of the "superiority" of Yankee fans just solidifies everyone's opinion of you guys.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 7, 2007 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 7, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
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by stillmonster on Oct 8, 2007 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions

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