Wedge wins MOY

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 2:09 PM EST Comment 130 comments

Eric Wedge took down the award in the AL, and Bob Melvin won it in the NL.

Story here.

Congratulations go out to Wedgie. We can argue til we're blue in the face what positive/negative impact he, or any, manager had on the team this year, but frankly I think that horse is dead enough.

It should be noted that the AL Central has a monopoly on these things.

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Re: Wedge wins MOY

He was first on 19 ballots and the only manager named on all 28. He received 116 total points. Scioscia was second with 62, then Torre with 61, then Francona with 13. Ugly green BBWAA voting results here.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

That website has to be a joke.

by Pronktastic on Nov 14, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I finally had to check out the site after all of these comments. And....wow. Shocking that they aren't pulling in any ad revenue.

Someday soon you will realize I know more then you think and I am very rarely wrong.

by dgcambridge on Nov 15, 2007 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Congrats Wedgie.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

HIRE WEDGE!

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Nov 14, 2007 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

yes.

by Brick. on Nov 14, 2007 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Nice to see some recognition for the season. It's sort of a curse, though. Look what happened to the teams the next year since the AL Central started winning these things a few years ago.

by CU Adam on Nov 14, 2007 3:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Is that you Hoynes?

I'm not a fan of Wedge, but I still have to say 'congrats'. It was a successful year and the team performed well.

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 14, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

The difference for the Tribe in 2007 was that Wedge learned how to coach in the offseason

by Roger Dorn on Nov 14, 2007 3:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

This is the right choice. Anyone that follows the team knows that all of our losses can be blamed on Derek Shelton

by Toxicadam on Nov 14, 2007 4:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Except for our last game -

I think that has to be put on Joel Skinner.

Congrats to Wedge on winning MOY - I think he improved in many areas over the last season, including how he used his bullpen and in making lineup changes (that worked more often than not.)

Just my 2 cents. :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Nov 14, 2007 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Congrats, Wedgie. Well deserved, IMO. I like what Wedge did with the team this year, regardless of the admittedly overblown emphasis on managerial control of the game.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 14, 2007 4:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Wedge is the man, and my favorite Indians manager in my lifetime. Yes, even before old man McNamera.

by homelytourist on Nov 14, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Out of the three guys that have managed since I've been watching, I'd have to agree.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 14, 2007 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

same here. never much cared for hargrove or manual. never much was aware managers period when i was younger. after reading Dealing i realy came to appreciate wedge even more.

by Brick. on Nov 14, 2007 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Beyond any shadow of a doubt, Pat Corrales is my all-time favorite Indians manager. How can you not worship the guy who presided over SI's "best team in baseball" in '87 and lead them to 110 losses? Plus, he had phenomenal hair.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 14, 2007 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I love all the award just wish we had a ring to go with them. C.C and Wedgerio hopefully have filled some life time goal and they can move on to bigger and better things now.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 14, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Ugh. Come ON. What on Earth makes you think CC or Wedge played this to achieve some sort of life time goal? What did they do exactly that leads you to believe they were going for individual awards and not for the World Series? You can be so obnoxious.

by CU Adam on Nov 14, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

You know what? Just stop posting.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 14, 2007 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

by Kos on Nov 14, 2007 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Hey boyz, let's lighten up here a bit. So E5 sees things differently than the LGT common wisdom - so what? Do we all hafta fall in with the accepted dogma? Or are we allowed to have unpopular opinions? Do you hafta be unfailingly rational? I would hope not. The root of fan is fanatic - by definition a little over the top. And aren't we all fans?

Here, I've got a number of unpopular views. Just a quick list:

I got my doubts that Hafner will revert to Pronk in '08 and I don't like his contract
I don't think the Tribe can pay CC the money he'll command in the market and am unwilling to pay him much more than $12M a year
I'm skeptical about Marte's future.
I don't think that Scott Rolen in the greatest defensive third baseman ever.

So am I allowed to post? Can I voice these opinions - even if I get a little irrational?

Guys, I like having E5 around - if nothing else just for comic relief and to keep the site from becoming one big circle-jerk.

E5 bro, as far as I'm concerned you can keep posting your off-the-wall half-baked BS for ever. I, for one find it both amusing and, sometimes, thought provoking.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

i think it's good for baseball that the yankees aparently are literally the only team in the leauge that can afford a-rod.

by Brick. on Nov 14, 2007 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Chuck --

Having an unpopular opinion and being a complete idiot are two things that are not mutually exclusive. You've had a number of unpopular opinions on LGT, but people respect you because your ideas are never knee-jerk, idiotic reactions. Now you know I'm not one who subscribes to the idea that EVERYONE has to back up EVERYTHING they say on here with a minimum of 547677934094 stats. You know me -- I'm as old school as it gets amongst all these young turks. But that doesn't give anyone an excuse to spout idiotic, irrational and reactionary crap on a consistent basis.

Dissent is useful and welcomed. Pure idiocy has no place here or in any form of public discourse. Enough is enough.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 14, 2007 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

but people respect you because your ideas are never knee-jerk, idiotic reactions

Never?

by Jay on Nov 14, 2007 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I'm pretty sure E5 is Jay's joke character. He and his wife probably sit on their couch reading the reactions and have a big laugh about it.

by Toxicadam on Nov 14, 2007 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

But wouldn't that mean he's breaking his own no "sock puppets" rule? (Just thinking about the ramifications of that makes my head hurt.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Nov 15, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Not if his wife is E5.

by emd2k3 on Nov 16, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

She's not E5. Too delightful a lady to spout off like he's wont to do.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 17, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I wanted to say this but then you did.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 14, 2007 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I think there's a slight difference here. You at least appear to root for the Tribe.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

chuck, I think what most people have an aversion to E5's post stem from the fact that he usually posts something unpopular (which is fine) but rarely backs up what he says with anything concrete OR never returns to the thread to defend his position at all.

It's more like a guy running into a crowded club and yelling FIRE just to see how fast everyone can jump. Methinks he sits there waiting to see how many responses he gets to his "bait". I know, because I've fallen for it way too many times already.

I've started to try and not pay attention to alot of what he says. But I must admit, it is kind of funny to watch all the responses he gets. If anyone truly doesn't like what he says, ignore it and he might just stop posting altogether.

by talonk on Nov 15, 2007 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

And this is what defines you as an old-timer around Dean. Most of us just blow off what E5 says if it appears to be somewhat of a bait. It's the guys in their 20's that can't hold back!

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 17, 2007 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

this is a very true statement. I really can't hold back. Its like flipping through the channels and stopping on a "Earnest goes to...." movie, I know I shouldn't stop, but I compulsively do.

by hans on Nov 17, 2007 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I love this reply, both for the ideas, and the use of the term "circle-jerk."

by JulioBernazard on Nov 15, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Thanks Chuck,

Some people loath to be hated some people loath to be loved. I chose my own path and regardless of whether some one agrees with me or not mean little to me. I don't come here to be a stat head although I have learned a ton about statistical analysis. I come here because I am a Fan and as a fan and baseball lover I have opinions that I feel others should consider. I don't come here to make friend or to make myself feel important. I come because we are a community of INDIANS fans. We all have different opinion and thoughts on how our team is performance or should be acquiring talent.

I can guarantee everyone here has been wrong somewhere done the line. I am not perfect but I see things a certain way for a reason. Most of the times I don't respond to people questions or complaints because most of the time people will not even consider my thought and try to personalize it, to the point of name calling. I have an opinion, I state it and move on. Some will agree, some will not. I like to see when people see it my way but I don't cry if they do not. Opinions are just that they are not facts. Statistics are facts but it is the interpretation of these facts that we base our opinions on. I am one more prone to gut feeling or passion over reasoned arguments. As a fan I love the game, even over the Indians. I am a Indians fan through and through but the game comes first. I love to see great plays and players regardless of uniforms. I feel this rampant hatred for organizations and players is to much like an English soccer league were the game isn't as important as the results. I love good results but I love the drama even more.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 15, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

You know, E5, that was very well said. I know I've been one of the few railing against you, so I really appreciate you saying what you said here. I can definitely get behind this, so I apologize for regressing into some petty antagonism towards you.

Regardless, I stick by my feelings. I'm a super passionate guy, but passion doesn't mean I can make things up and act like they are right regardless of fact.

Anyway, bygones being bygones and all that, let's move on and talk Tribe.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 15, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I still think you're missing a little bit of the point. You often pass your opinions off as fact, insult the intelligence of those that try to argue against them, and dismiss most numbers we use to defend our own opinions. On more than one occasion in a game thread you've made some dismissive and disrespectful response to someone along the lines of, "Well those of us that actually understand this game..." I can't speak for others, but it's that abrasiveness--not your negative opinions themselves--that bug me.

I come here because I am a Fan and as a fan and baseball lover I have opinions that I feel others should consider.

Deal, as long as you start recognizing our right to an opinion as well.

by nickjs21 on Nov 15, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Chucky baby your very fatherly defense of him is making me start to wonder....

So how's this for a conspiracy theory...Chuck is in reality Edgar's father-in-law. That would make Chuck's daughter an (Indians-paraphenalia-washing) Red Sox fan, which would make perfect sense considering her upbringing in a Yankee-hating environment as a child. Any questions?

Yeah yeah Chuck, I'm now returning to my regularly scheduled studying.

by supermarioelia on Nov 15, 2007 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Good theory, I like it. But Turk and I have meet Chuck's son, and he's way too smart and secure to make posts like those above.

Someday soon you will realize I know more then you think and I am very rarely wrong.

by dgcambridge on Nov 16, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Agreed. And how you been, Dave?

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 16, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Good. Busy. Just now recovered from watching the playoffs. Did I mention that I drive by Coors Field every day on the way to work? Ouch.

What did you end up deciding on, as far as work this year?

Someday soon you will realize I know more then you think and I am very rarely wrong.

by dgcambridge on Nov 17, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Actully, I'm starting a new job at RAND Corporation on the 26th (I've been in DC temping since August). It's just an entry level thing, but it's where I want to be. Long term, I think I may make a push for the CIA. We'll see how things turn out.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 17, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Watch out for the reverse vampires!

(Congrats on the new job)

by mkwng on Nov 18, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Nope - no daughters in my lineage. We - my brothers and cousings - beget nothing but boys. Got any medical theories for that one Mario?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 17, 2007 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I have no theories for that either, but the same thing is true in my family. We have nothing but more and more boys.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 17, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

At least there's no pressure. I'm the last in a line of males on my father's side. It's my duty to carry on the family name.

by nickjs21 on Nov 17, 2007 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

True enough, I never have to worry about the Brady name getting carried on, even if I am more of Marshall (my mother's maiden name, which nearly ended in her generation).

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 18, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Are you saying that C.C. and Wedge placed their personal goals ahead of the team?

by Spidey on Nov 14, 2007 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I don't think he actually said that, though folks are acting like he did.

I hope all three men (Shapiro as well) can take a lot of professional satisfaction in their awards, but I certainly expect that any of the three would trade five personal awards for one ring without hesitation.

by Jay on Nov 14, 2007 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I do think he is stating that they wouldn't have moved on (i.e. World Series Championship) without first obtaining these individual awards. I think he says that pretty clearly. You tell me Jay, do you agree with that statement, that there is somehow a link between obtaining these awards and obtaining a World Series championship? because our dear friend E5 seems to imply so else why would he state, "hopefully have filled some life time goal and they can move on to bigger and better things now."

The key word is "now". As if before winning these awards it would not be possible to "move on to bigger and better things".

by hans on Nov 14, 2007 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Good God hans, you'll go insane if you parse each and every statement E5 makes. Just let it wash over you like a giant insane wave. Don't try to figure out the motives just revel in the complete release from all logic.

It's bu-ti-full dude!

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

i'm slippin chuck, slippin. Fiver has me questioning my meaning in life and if there is a god...i'm losing it!

by hans on Nov 14, 2007 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

This did make me laugh quite a bit. But bottom line is, if I wanted insane irrationality, I'd spend the majority of my time on the ESPN or PD boards.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 15, 2007 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No offense, E5, but based on what we know about

them, it's likely both would trade their awards for a WS ring and trophy right now, so please don't imply that CC and Wedge were just out for these individual awards.

Based on their reputations (that we know of,) they are team-oriented, moreso than some managers and players in this league, so trying to imply that Sabathia and Wedge were looking for individual awards is inaccurate in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents - no offense.

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Nov 14, 2007 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

While we Indian fans may sententiously proclaim that such trades of trophies for rings would be willingly made by all in question, no such bartering mechanism exists. So all that cliched team-first talk is just that--talk.

Personally, I would prefer a rotation of starters who greedily pursue the Cy Young award year after year. It's hard to see how aiming for excellence hurts the team.

Great players can't help but improve their teams. Years ago, defending Ted Williams against charges that he played for himself rather than for the Red Sox, John Updike wrote, "...for Williams to have distributed all his hits so they did nobody else any good would constitute a feat of placement unparalled in the annals of selfishness."

I hope for a year when the Indians win all the awards and the rings. Then the GM and the manager and the rest of the honorees can make a legitimate comparison of their values.

by Rochester on Nov 15, 2007 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Well said.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 15, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Yeah, nicely put.

by hans on Nov 15, 2007 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Setentiously, huh?

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 15, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Personally, I would prefer a rotation of starters who greedily pursue the Cy Young award year after year. It's hard to see how aiming for excellence hurts the team.

I can't think of how either, unless a guy was going to go for high strikeout totals rather than overall effectiveness, like Nolan Ryan. And there are plenty of ways for position players to help their MVP cases while not helping the team optimally.

But even so, the general idea that a singular drive for personal excellence is a great trait to have in a player obviously holds up. I think about how hard Manny has worked to be a great hitter, because it's simply something he wants to be -- possibly the only thing.

by Jay on Nov 16, 2007 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Didn't you get the memo on Manny, he doesn't work to be a great hitter, he was just born a great hitter. Imagine if he worked hard like Pedroia, think how good he would be then.

by ClarkM on Nov 16, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

You might not like Manny but he is one of the hardest workers in baseball.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 16, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

When Manny was in Cleveland, he had a room in his house where he had a pitching machine, a bat, balls laying everywhere on the ground and holes all over the walls.....

by hans on Nov 16, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I think clark was being sarcastic.

by nickjs21 on Nov 16, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Thanks Nick, I most certainly was being sarcastic. I thought it was obvious.

by ClarkM on Nov 17, 2007 1:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

My post above is not intended to garner any sympathy or even make others like me. As I have stated above your feeling on me are not important to me and never will be. I have an opinion and I am here to state it. I didn't ask for you guys to apologize to me or even comment on what I said. I am just stating my opinions and leaving them where they may be. No commentary is necessary good or bad. I am just explaining how I think and wasn't' intended to be a commentary on myself or my approach.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 15, 2007 6:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Well, you were doing well until this one. Also! How can you rag on the EPL? Best league in the world.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 15, 2007 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Glory Glory Tottenham Hotspur!

by Pronktastic on Nov 18, 2007 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

ugh

by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on Nov 18, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Ha. A Gooner, I presume?

by Pronktastic on Nov 18, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Fraid so...season ticket holder too. Although I'm extremely pissed that I'll miss the North London Derby next month because I'll be in NE Ohio visting the in-laws....there won't even be any baseball on to numb the pain.

On a related note, anyone know any soccer friendly bars in the Cleveland/Ashtabula area?

by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on Nov 19, 2007 3:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I don't live there anymore, but the Blarney Stone was about the only one I remember that opened early. The Celtic Supporters Club of Cleveland used to, and still may, call it home.

Link

Flannery's and various others are Setanta and FSC subscribers, but they don't open until 10 or 11.

by Pronktastic on Nov 19, 2007 9:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Keep The Blue Flag Flying High

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 18, 2007 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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Well at least LGT has good representation vis a vis the London derbies.

by Pronktastic on Nov 19, 2007 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Who wrote this crap? Andrew Lloyd Weber?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 18, 2007 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

If you prefer something a little more comprehensive...

by Pronktastic on Nov 19, 2007 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Reason #1,279 to hate soccer.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 19, 2007 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I somewhat suspected you would not be a fan.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 19, 2007 2:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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No doubt you are all as pleased as me to see the CHAMPIONS back at their rightful place on top of the league!

by new zealand tribe fan on Nov 19, 2007 5:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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Are we talking Man U or game-in-hand Arsenal?

Who am I kidding? Either one makes me retch.

by Pronktastic on Nov 19, 2007 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Me and 290,000,000 other Americans.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 19, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

For the life of me I don't know why.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 19, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Me either, I don't actively watch soccer, except a game here and there, but it's a hell of a lot more fun than watching football. I realize I'm probably alone in this opinion, but yeah, I said it.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 19, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I knew there was a reason I started that fan club.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 19, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

It's a wash for me. I love both for very different reasons.

There is something to be said for two blocks of 45+ minutes of uninterrupted sport. No commercials or TV timeouts to break the ebb and flow of the game.

I find the build-ups to be very similar to baseball. The game is slow-paced compared to football, but you can feel when a squad is pushing ahead and building solid attacks. You know when a team has momentum, but it is frantic as a fan to see whether or not a team will convert its chances into goals. You can have a side on its back foot the entire game, but in the end it's about execution.

I've only been a fan for a few years, but these are my favorable impressions of the game. Others would probably be able to describe its merits more eloquently.

by Pronktastic on Nov 19, 2007 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I share this view with you. Of the televised sports, these two are my favorites, and I think it's probably because I perceive them as the two that require the most thought and the greatest degree of strategy.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 19, 2007 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I respect and appreciate soccer. It may be the hardest sport on the planet; it combines the need for a unique, specialized skill set like baseball with the pure athleticism of basketball and football to make for a hell of a difficult sport.

But for some reason, I can't get into. I watch the world cup, I watch the UEFA cup, etc. But I just can't follow it regularly. I chalk it up to the fact that soccer is one of the few sports I have never played on a regular basis, either organizationally or in pick-up games with friends. I've always played baseball, football, and even basketball, and thus have a more intimate understanding of the rules and minutiae. I can't say the same of soccer or hockey, though I recognize the greatness and difficulty of both sports.

Bottom line, my favorite sports are in the order of those which I have played the most. Having played baseball organizationally from age 5 to 16, it is the game I understand and love the most. No otehr sport will ever come close, but that's not to take anything away from a great game like soccer.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 19, 2007 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

There is no other sport in America where more people have lost more money than soccer. Clearly there are a lot of investors who feel as you guys do. My only advice: don't invest a nickle in pro-soccer is a proven money loser. Unless the girls start playing it on the beach in those beach volleyball uni's.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 19, 2007 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I certainly won't argue that a lot of money has been lost on soccer in the US. I just know that my almost 7-year old has played soccer and baseball for the last 3 years and digs both sports equally. He's perfectly happy watching either sport, but probably requests to watch soccer more often than baseball. He thinks the Italians take dives too often, with which I agree.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 19, 2007 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Your son should try playing Serbians if he thinks Italians dive a lot. There is a very good semi-pro league up here near Cleveland that is composed of mostly Eastern European teams, flopping is an art form.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 19, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

"flopping is an art form"

That's all you need to know about soccer.

Dr. Erik, just wait, as soon as the kid's testosterone turns on that soccer ball will never come outta the closet.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 19, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

as soon as the kid's testosterone turns on Sorry, but that's utter nonsense.

by mkwng on Nov 19, 2007 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Just my personal experience. My boys aged 7-11 played soccer, once they hit puberty the fall was devoted to football. It's all about the violence.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 20, 2007 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

they had puberty back then?

by Brick. on Nov 20, 2007 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I'm 24 and quite certainly through puberty and I play semi-pro soccer. (Which is the real football). And I have 5 younger brothers from 22 down to 4 that play as well. The testosterone argument is a bit disingenuous for you Chuck.

In re: flopping. Soccer/football is art in motion. There is no more beautiful game to watch or play when it is done well. Don't even pretend that there is no diving or flopping in "American" sports. Basketball and American football are just as bad.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

OK, then tell me why soccer has continually flopped in the US. Ever since Pele came to the US numerous entities have tried and failed to establish soccer as a sport for American boys. They've had some success with women's soccer but, 35 years later it still is, at best, a minor sport in America.

There is no equivalent to LeBron or TO playing soccer in America - our best athletes are not interested. But one phenomenon is the mass of young - 7 to 11 yo - boys (suburban boys anyway) playing soccer but, once they hit adolescence transitioning to football.

My question is this: how come American male soccer players are at best mediocre, while our football and basketball players are superior athletes.

I don't think that soccer is attractive to adolescent American males because it lacks the violence that comes naturally to teenage boys.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 20, 2007 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I have no idea why soccer has not caught on. I think a good portion of it is the xenophobia inherent in American culture. Quite simply, we don't play sports that we didn't invent. You are talking about the sport that the rest of the world follows rabidly and yet we ignore it. Another part could be that the MLS blows.

Our best athletes are not soccer players, true. But soccer players are among the best athletes. Does that make sense? Clint Dempsey and DMB are fantastically athletic. Soccer players as a rule are very athletic. We just live somewhat under the radar. (I suppose that is another debate. FWIW, I am actually a supporter of the English national team).

What we lack here is a great football personality. Beckham is a Euro phenomenon, not well suited to the US despite the efforts of ESPN.

If the violence is the big draw why do European boys play soccer and not American football? They have the game over there, should it not draw them away from soccer?

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I also feel that the best US soccer players go overseas to play, which negatively impacts soccer in the states. What we see in this country is an inferior product to what is available in Europe. Honestly, I think that's the major reason, if not THE reason, that soccer isn't bigger here.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Soccer is the worst sport in the history of man kind. The games have no strategies and isn't worth my time or any ones time to watch or play. Heck, I would rather run cross country then play soccer. At lest in Cross County you can achieve something. Soccer has more concussions then any other sport in world. Just plain boring and illogical.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 20, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Thankfully, E5, you've brought the voice of reason to this discussion...

Anyone who thinks that there is no strategy in soccer is just flat out uninformed. You obviously haven't played the game, nor ever taken any time to observe, so I'll just go ahead and disregard your opinion on this topic.

Please go back to talking about things that you know something about. I have no idea what those things are, but I'll just keep on reading in hopes that you'll show us something as some point.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Thanks Erik. That made me as angry as anything he has ever written.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Try to ignore the haters.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

You obviously haven't played the game, nor ever taken any time to observe, so I'll just go ahead and disregard your opinion on this topic.

It's like you're quoting E5 against him.

by nickjs21 on Nov 20, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

You caught that huh? Thank you.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

A. Soccer is almost nothing but strategy. You obviously have no idea of what you are speaking. The differences between a 4-5-1 a 4-3-3 and a 3-4-3 are all about strategy. When to attack and when to defend, how many to play behind the ball, who takes the set pieces and penalties. Man, you just piss me off. If you know nothing about just ignore it.

B. Goals are what you acheive in soccer. Watch a celebration sometime and tell me you don't think the players have acheived something. YouTube the Beckham goal at Old Trafford against Greece then tell me it wasn't an achievement.

C. American football has the most concussions of any sport played in the US. It is almost impossible to get a concussion playing soccer. Again, bloody research something instead of just talking.

D. I don't see how you can glory in a 1-0 shutout in baseball and then call soccer boring. There is even more downtime in a 10-9 baseball game then there is in a soccer game. I'll make you a deal. You watch the Israel-Russia from last week on FSC and then come back and tell me that soccer isn't exciting.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Regarding point A, I totally agree, I spend a fair bit of time thinking about who to position where to take advantage during games and then post game for when we see a team again.

Regarding point C, I think it was Portsmouth - Manchester City a couple of weekends ago (don't quote me on that), corner kick, guy heads the ball into the goal and get kicked in the face by a defender. Broken nose, concussion too I think, carted off the field, but worth it because he scored. It's a rough sport, but certainly not the roughest.

Regarding point D, he's not going to watch.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I remember that play. My point is just that it is much more difficult to acquire a concussion in soccer than say, football. The odd head to head collision or getting kicked will happen but it is hardly a common occurence.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

In that case, I would say that it's more improbable to get a concussion in soccer, rather than nearly impossible. But that's just semantics.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Facts are facts. Soccer has more head injuries then any other sport per athlete.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 20, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Actually football is responsible for more than twice as many head injuries than soccer. Also ahead of soccer are basketball, softball, baseball, water polo, water sports and skateboarding. Those are actual facts according to the American Association of Neurological Surgeons.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

PER ATHLETE

Meaning the percentage of Soccer players that play or have played have more head injuries. Yes, football and basketball have more head injuries but not nearly at the rate of injuries per athlete.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 20, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Frankly, your argument is getting pretty thin.

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

by nickjs21 on Nov 20, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

LOL

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 21, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Well, which is it? Does soccer have the most concussions or the most head injuries? B/c you've now said both, and the two are not synonymous.

Any chance you'd be interested in citing a source?

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 20, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Haven't you figured out that the sources that he cites are more feelings than actual facts?

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

He won't cite a source because he is wrong. More kids play soccer than any other sport so, not even per athlete. This is getting hard to read.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I've said it, Brick has said it, Turk has said it, I think Nick may have said it, Brad said it.

Why oh why are we still being subjected to this?

by NickFantana on Nov 20, 2007 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Technically I don't think this is the sort of thing people should get banned for. Being annoying and having poor opinions are nothing we can prevent. I'm just not crazy about it.

by nickjs21 on Nov 20, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

It's debatable. Jay, if you read this, I'm reconsidering my argument from last week. This seems a lot like baiting now that I'm paying closer attention to what he's posting.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I've said it (now).

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 21, 2007 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

That's true. Our best player (Clint Dempsey) is having a fantastic year at Craven Cottage. Over there, that is big news. Here, it gets ignored. Sadly, the MLS is just not good enough to make a player like Dempsey stay. The EPL is at such a high level that I don't think we will ever catch up to them. I agree, that keeps soccer in the background here. Americans won't tune in to watch minor league talent.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Nov 20, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Sports fans have too many other options here, all of which are pretty well ingrained in the culture. It is simply more acceptable for young boys and men to play football, basketball, or baseball. I played all these sports, and never once played organized soccer, but can still very much appreciate the sport.

I don't know that violence comes naturally to teenage boys. Only so many play football, and both baseball and basketball have less contact then soccer. If violence is what they are after, why are kids choosing these other sports?

Professional soccer has continuously flopped in the US due to incredibly poor league management. Rapid expansion without a solid base. It appears that grown-ups are now in charge of MLS, focusing on soccer-specific stadiums in most markets. A few clubs have already become profitable, with more than half the league expected to do so within the next few years. It will probably never be an elite league, but it should at least grow to be an excellent grooming ground for US and other North American talent.

And to answer your question of why American athletic talent in football and basketball is better than soccer? Money, of course. An atheltic wunderkid will probably try his hand (or be strongly encouraged to try his hand) at something that can pay him multi-millions.

by Pronktastic on Nov 20, 2007 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Honestly, I think that there is grassroots shifting in this. Howard County, Maryland is noteworthy in that the public schools offer no school sports teams until you reach high school, so in elementary and junior high, it's all club teams. In the club that I coach in, in my son's age group (boys under 7), there are 24 teams of ~10 boys each. And there are a half dozen other clubs with teams in the same age range. To my knowledge the numbers of boys playing soccer is triple or quadruple that of boys playing football in this county. I'm not saying that this is the norm. But it's startling to see the vast numbers of boys playing soccer on any given Saturday. I honestly have to fight for practice space/time.

I personally will not be surprised to see a major soccer league gain a foothold in the country in my lifetime. All of these kids that are playing now have a much better understanding and appreciation for the game that the generations that preceded them. We have good coaches at younger and younger levels. We are training a better product. A few powerful personalities and a strong pipeline (that could be supplied by current teenagers) may be what eventually forces soccer in to the mainstream.

Not saying it's going to happen, but the possibilities are there and improving

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

First, soccer is the largest youth sport, by participants, in the country. Clearly, it has some traction amongst kids and their parents.

To the point about soccer's lack of big-time popularity in America, I think the answer is simple: it's the minors. Sophisticated sports fans, especially when they have other options, aren't going to support a league that features second-tier stars. As long as the EPL is the best league in the world, American professional soccer will struggle to gain popularity. The same dynamic is at work (was at work before the plug was pulled on the league) with American football in Europe. It flopped. We have the best football, basketball and baseball players/leagues in the world here. A Triple-A quality soccer league has no chance.

I would contend, however, that if the EPL were to uproot and move to the US, lock stock and barrel, soccer would very quickly become a major, main-stream sport.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 20, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Guys, you're living in a suburban world, not exactly a hot bed of great sports athletes. Glenville High School, in Cleveland, Ohio, doesn't even have a soccer team, meanwhile in the last five years they've produced a Heisman Trophy winner, an NFL first round draft pick and about a dozen Big Ten starters. They're just isn't any interest in soccer there.

And to address the violence thing. If you'll give me the fact that there is such an entity as 'roid rage - I think there is but there are dissenting opinions - then you must at least entertain the possibility that puberty produces a similar, but not identical, phenomenon. There's other evidence that this is true - I'll give you some sitings if you insist. Football calls for mayhem at every snap - every snap. It's organic to the game and that's what is attractive to most of the participants. Soccer can be tough, but contact is incidental - not a required part of the game.

As to the money aspect, of the big three, football is by far the least attractive financially. Baseball players last longer and have higher incomes. This is even truer in basketball. Quarterbacks make the big money and tend to hang on longer, but you'd rather be a left-handed middle reliever than a Pro Bowl lineman. Anybody who's done the numbers knows this.

And Not Joey, you maybe right - bring the best players in the world here and you might have something. I just don't see it happening. Maybe soccer should just be viewed as a game for pre-pubescent boys and girls of all ages and let it go at that.

Finally, there are some soccer players who play American football. They're called kickers. If you've ever watched a kicker run for his life after a kick-off you'll see why many football players do not hold soccer players in high esteem. As an aside, that Aussie-rules punter is a completely different matter. That's one tough dude.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 20, 2007 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

First thing is, I agree with E5 on this.

Second thing is, every time soccer comes up it's the exact same discussion. It's totally off-topic and boring, too. Can't we talk about Brandon Phillips?

Third thing is, take it to DawgsByNature. It'll be off-topic there, too, but at least I won't have to read it, and at least soccer is actually called football.

Or better yet, take it here.

by Jay on Nov 20, 2007 6:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Fine, I will agree that this has nothing to do with Wedge winning the MOY. But this conversation was about the trickle off until the baiting started. And that's in no way limited to this particular discussion. As I said above, I'm about to reverse course on that whole, "at what point do you ban someone who just seems to get a thrill out of pissing off other people and bring no facts to the table to support their incessant rambling" argument.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

I don't know, man, maybe you're just a nicer person, in person.

by Jay on Nov 20, 2007 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wedge wins MOY

Actually, I think the mistake was making a judgment without really spending a whole lot of time reviewing what was being written. I'm catching up on the last several weeks during this light week at work. It's not baiting to the Brandini level, but it's elevating. I'm just sayin'...

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Nov 20, 2007 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs