Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questionable Decision-Making
With a heading like that, it must be time for the trade deadline, the magical time of year when eight guys try to make twenty two guys look stupid.
Roundup of the day so far:
Dotel is still available according to most everywhere.
Gagne is rumored to Mets, Red Sox, Yankees, Brewers but he has a partial no-trade which includes the Indians and he wants to close. So discussion on him re: us can stop there.
Some new names you may not have heard:
"If anything were to happen, I'd imagine we'd be talking about a relatively minor RP trade."
So, with all that in mind, it seems that maybe the Indians will be significant players but more likely sit on the sidelines, sticking a toe in at an opportune time. So this thread is welcome to any and all teams, scenarios and so forth.
343 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and..
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and..
A backend with Wheeler/reyes, Betancourt and Perez is pretty enticing.
The problem is what the cost would be to pry Wheeler/reyes from TB. We'll see.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and..
by JulioBernazard on Jul 31, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and..
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and..
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
I'm pretty sure he and Garko played at Stanford together.
I think what Keri is calling a "minor reliever" is probably going to be a big deal to us, as fans of the team. Obviously, we're not going to go get Dunn today, but if we get somebody like Rauch or Damasao Marte, that's not minor in our world.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
BP is pretty high on him. "He may not have Chris Young's upside, but he's the safer bet for a solid career."
I wish I had never heard this rumor. I'm going to be excited until 3 PM when it eventually doesn't happen.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
by NickFantana on Jul 31, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
by tribemountain on Jul 31, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Otherwise I agree that it would be more likely an offseason move for the Indians to get Quentin.
by cel13 on Jul 31, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Does the quality of the two players not factor into your approval at all?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
by supermarioelia on Jul 31, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Cardinals acquire Joel Piñeiro... which is weird that STL gave up anything for him, seeing that he was on waivers less than a week ago.
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 11:30 AM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors
Also, I would enforce a one-year moratorium on FO complaints if we attained Carlos Quentin.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors
Questionable Decision-Making
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by NickFantana on Jul 31, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by NickFantana on Jul 31, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/Q/carlos-quentin.shtml
He's not a guy with a lot of potential, in my opinion. He's there, he's just in a slump. He's too old and too accomplished in the minors to not be able to hit at least league average right now, and he's likely to hit a lot better.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
This isn't a trade Shaprio is looking to make, but if, say, he was already on the phone with Arizona and they mentioned Quentin was available, I imagine Shapiro and Antonetti drooling and seeing what they could work out. It's not a deal they would pass up. As of right now however I think the only real priority is an arm.
Bill James saw him as a 25-HR guy.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I think the Indians trade Lee straight up for Quentin purely because of contract status -- sure, what the hell? But he's unlikely (at 25) to blossom into an impact player. He's just got a little more of a projectable bat than Francisco.
You have to wonder if acquiring someone like this makes it easier to part with Gutierrez, given that some other team will value him as a CF -- Coco with an arm.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Is that not basically Lee for Dotel?
And what would anyone think of that?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Man I wish I knew how bad Lee's head problems are.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
My point was that if this was just on paper, I do it right away. I think Quentin basically is Gutz, with more projectable skills (plate discipline). I think Lee is done, his periphs are just bad.
However, it's hard to keep Gutz in context after you see him play. Sexy talent. You're afraid he's going to make you look stupid.
Whatever. Do it. He'd be on the Royals. How painful can it be?
Plus, everyone touting this age thing:
Gutz: 2/21/83
Quentin: 8/28/82
6 months. Meh.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Also! I'm Gutz' fanboy #1.
by homelytourist on Jul 31, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Just seems like acquiring Quentin would be an unnecessary and circuitous way to get insurance for a Gutz trade -- do other teams value Gutz that highly?
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Yes, he can play CF. That drives up his value.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Which is more likely to pan out?
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2007 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
If we're so anxious to trade Cliff Lee then throw him in the mix for a reliever now, so that it will help...yes, now.
Don't get me wrong, I like Quentin, but he is now officially a continuing injury risk. I read somewhere that he still has to have shoulder surgery this offseason.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I think these two are a wash. Quentin is a better bat -- and a safer bet to eventually be a good hitter -- but Gutierrez has the better glove. Quentin is the better fit for the Indians, but Gutierrez in some ways is the safer trade chip for later. If his bat doesn't come out so good, someone is still going to want him to play CF.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
And if Lee's the price, again, I'd want to spend him for an immediate reward towards a playoff run.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
In any case, its not acquiring Quentin I have the problem with. Like I said, I like him and he was one of the corner OF's I would have loved to acquire last winter (not that he was available, but he fit the bill). It's the turning around and trading Gutz at this point that I'd object to.
Re:
Re: Vicious Rumors
Re: Vicious Rumors
by NickFantana on Jul 31, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors
by Cactus Jack on Jul 31, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors,
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors,
He says Dotel is done but held up until the Teixera deal is completed-everyone must complete physicals. Also, he says Dayton might be taking a lower offer because he's familiar with Davies and believes he knows something the stats don't show.
Says Pirates price on Marte is high b/c he took a lower dollar deal. Implies Pittsburgh will again not trade anyone.
Re: Vicious Rumors,
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
I don't know what to think of that.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle
Re: Vicious Rumors
I have separate tabs at the top of my screen opened to this site, Jayson Stark's insider, MLB Trade Rumors, Ken Rosenthal, and Cleveland.com (for whatever reason). Every couple of minutes I refresh each one.
4 PM can't come quickly enough.
Re: Vicious Rumors
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and
by BoDiaz1974 on Jul 31, 2007 1:09 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I'd pick Percival up if the price was right.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I would trade Goleski for nearly anything. I couldn't be more positive he's not a contributor.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
Real Estate Agent from Hawaii on show quote: "We're selling lifestyle here. This house is nice, but it's the lifestyle."
Going to the beach at 7:37 is lifestyle.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
by jeremy @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and ...
Don't try to turn this on me rhetorically. The ridiculous convention of calling the stat "wins" makes it a challenge for me, but you still have no shot here.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Plus, he can't play the field AT ALL.
Re: Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Idle Speculation
I'm really concerned with the Raffys getting overworked as this team makes its playoff push and tries to send out its best pitchers more often (the whole every game is important mentality).
I think an extra, reliable reliever is essential, if only for insurance purposes.
Re: Idle Speculation
Re: Idle Speculation
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Idle Speculation
What about Jewish fans? ; )
Re: Vicious Rumors,
Split? WTF?
Re: Vicious Rumors,
Re: Vicious Rumors,
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
"Kyle Davies, Seriously?"
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
How does he have time to do this if we're making a deal.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
/tries to convince self that nothing will happen
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors
I like Shapiro.
Re: Vicious Rumors
Re: Vicious Rumors
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/07/31/gagne.redsox/index.html
Kinda weird, why would the best bullpen in the league go after such a pricy (in prospects, I mean) set-up guy? Maybe they'll prep Papelbon to start again?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Interesting to see how this plays out, after Boston more or less won their stand-off with Boras in the Matsuzaka negotiations. This time, Boras is the one who can afford to just walk away.
On the other hand, if Boras holds up the deal, does that sour the relationship with his bitch, Tom Hicks?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by jeremy @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Not a bad thought but kind of overkill.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
$75,000 for 3 GF, $0.1M for 6 GF, $0.15M each for 10, 13 & 16 GF, $0.175M for 20, 23 & 26 GF, $0.2M each for 30, 33 & 36 GF, $0.25M each for 40, 43 & 46 GF, $0.5M each for 50, 53 & 56 GF, $0.333M each for 60 & 63 GF, $0.334M for 66 GF
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
With a fairly torn-up rotation, it's not a bad idea for them to try to shorten the game to five or six innings.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors,
Dubious about taking pitchers from NL.
Re: Vicious Rumors,
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors,
And no, that's not batting practice. We have plenty of those to go around it seems.(Mastny, FCab)
Re: Vicious Rumors,
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
jo-TOM-bo
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I've always favored JoeBlow, but he hasn't lived up to his name enough this year. (Thank God)
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 2:51 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
I love that you can use edited rosters online. With me being a stickler for updated rosters, I was playing my friend one night and I had Kenny Lofton AND Octavio Dotel on my roster. May have jumped the gun on that second move there.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
And to stay on topic, I don't think a deal is going to get done for a reliever.
Texas is tied up, Dotel is gone, and I haven't seen a blurb on Percival all day. I think something would have been announced by now. I also hope I'm wrong in an hour or so...
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Fact: I own a Winnipeg Jets hooded sweatshirt.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by supermarioelia on Jul 31, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
I mentioned online play before via GENS, and here's a great website for all things NHL94 for either Genesis or SNES: http://www.nhl94.com
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
BTW...Barfield becomes the best 2B in the league by 2010 in franchise mode. 34 HR and 140 RBI in the last season I played.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Warning, it's a deep league and there isn't much to go around on the waiver wire.
Scott Podsednik
Jay Gibbons
Joey Gathright (AAA, but could be called up if Royals move either E.Brown or Sanders)
Jason Tyner
Josh Wilson (TB)
Ben Zobrist
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Shap: Hey Brian, I'll give you Francisco and Miller for A-Rod.
Ca$hman: No.
I mean, how formal/informal are the conversations between GMs?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
The way Phillips talks, I just can't imagine him being on the phone with 5+ GMs trying to finish off a deadline deal. He'd never be able to keep the names (players or GMs) straight.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 3:41 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by LoftonsFlyingHat on Jul 31, 2007 3:41 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by LoftonsFlyingHat on Jul 31, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:44 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Blatant Plagerism
by UndeniableMagistrate on Jul 31, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Blatant Plagerism
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:47 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
He's also comparing the Phils picking up Iguchi to the Braves not trading for a starter? This is probably the dumbest argument he's made all month, especially since Iguchi is a 4th/5th IF and Teix is a good 1B.
by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jul 31, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Oh, also! Engel Beltre is apparently also going to Texas.
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Things happen to 21 year olds on their way to the big leagues. Phillips Hughes didn't fix everything when he rode into town, either.
I just think trading away pitching depth for a marginal upgrade might've been a tad unwise when your pitching is as suspect as the Yankees, you have an old manager who loves certain guys and refuses to pitch others, and your replacement is 21.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Goes back to expectations and the goal of this season. If its a playoff birth, we are still fine. If its a championship, we are probably short.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Go look at the last 15 World Series teams. The conventionally 'best' teams in the playoffs do not make it or win it with any consistency.
Making the playoffs is the trick. From there, it's just winning a coin flip a bunch of times in a row.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Did anyone realize the Atlanta Braves won 101 games in 2003? Sheesh. And the Giants won 100? And neither of these teams made the NLCS.
I didn't realize that somehow. I need to stop ignoring the NL.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Sure, our chances to make the playoffs may have remained the same, but the Red Sox just got a lot more difficult to beat in the playoffs.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
It's a 7 game series, or even a 5. Weird things happen, every single year. Yet we still sit around and say "Well, the magic formula is X, so team Y is definitely going to do it." And then when they don't, and some other team does, we make up something else to explain why team Z won.
It's no more likely that the Red Sox bullpen will matter in October than it is that they won't.
It's baseball. It's just 5 or 7 games. The trick is getting there and then hoping.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
Granted, it is even more magnified over the course of 2 months worth of games. But I don't think it is "idle speculation" that the Red Sox are a better team in the playoffs with Gagne than they were without him.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
we could play this game all day if you really want to.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
There's no reason to try to parse who the Indians' competition is for the World Series by picking out who we think the best teams are, because it's not any more likely that they'll be the WS champs than another playoff team. This kind of ranking of contenders is exactly what the media has tried to do with the Red Sox and Yankees both before the season and during it for the past 6 years, and it's been wrong 6 of 7 times.
Our competition is whoever else is trying to make the playoffs. Once you've made it, set it and forget it.
Your midseason acquisitions don't mean anything in the playoffs; the sample is too small. You're at the hands of fate and elements of human nature we don't understand.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
I disagree. We can look at the American League and confidently say that there are only 7 teams or so that could possibly win the World Series: Boston, New York, Cleveland, Detroit, Minnesota, Anaheim, Seattle.
Of the 6 teams that are our competition for the AL crown, 1 (Boston) got significantly better today.
Does the team with the most talent always win in the playoffs or in one short series? No. But, moves like getting Gagne do make a lot of difference in a short series. Could he give up a homerun to lose a critical game? Sure. But overall, I don't think I'm stretching to say that he increases the chance that they will win the AL, which in turn decearses the chance that the Tribe will.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
So, again, I disagree completely. The Red Sox increased their chances of making the playoffs today, which is the big deal.
I realize this is probably heretical to you but I don't think any players are going to be projectable as "difference makers" in October. The outcome is going to be determined almost exclusively by chance.
Now, they'll be difference makers in hindsight. But not in foresight. Not even close.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation
and Questionable Decision-Making
Re: and Questionable Decision-Making
Re: and Questionable Decision-Making
Giants trade Matt Morris to Pirates for Rajai Davis (OF) and the infamous PTBNL.
I know the Giants are happy to unload his $9.5M (yes you read that right) for next season. Now why the Pirates, of all teams, wanted to pick him up is beyond me.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Or something like this.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 31, 2007 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors
We weren't forced to trade away anyone of value in the organization (except Max. Ramirez)
Things I'm not happy about:
We weren't able to swing any of our organizational slough for something useful at the major-league level
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Aug 1, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Aug 1, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I guess, where you evaluate all other teams in terms of "Are they closer to building a contender/contending right now", you have to evaluate the Bucs in terms of "Are they closer to not losing 90 games?"
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Gassko's argument is compelling (in addition to the fact that he seems unimpressed with Davis, which makes me think that maybe Stark was inflating is value to add outrage) but it's main result is, if you believe his assertation that this is a job saving move, to engender more outrage on my part that the ownership in Pittsburgh is so terrible. Mark Cuban needs to buy the Pirates, not the Cubs.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
If you're a good businessman who likes winning, like Cuban, which team are you going to want to buy?
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
He obviously bought Dallas because he's local to there (right?) but he bought them while they were in the absolute tank. Now he is the Mavericks. He could be the same thing in Pittsburgh; no such luck with the Cubs.
I think he's megalomaniacal enough to want to have a team identified with himself totally again, as opposed to dumping cash into the Cubs, making some smart moves, and turning them into a champ within 5 years. At that point, the story is the Cubs winning, as opposed to what the story will ever be if Dallas wins: Cuban's singular will in turning this team into what they are.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re:
The idea of having to keep him in the pen for the stretch run makes the mop up part of my brain hurt. That was the main thing I was hoping for, getting a decent reliever and including Cabrera in the package, so we could actually use the full roster.
Re:
Questionable Decision-Making
Re: Questionable Decision-Making
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I personally believe we have a glaring weakness in the bullpen (lack of depth) and there were some parts out there that could have helped fix it. There were 3-4 guys out there who could seriously help, and no those guys weren't the much talked about 'difference makers' that the national media focused on. The talk for the entire season, here and on other Tribe sites, that we have a great offense, good solid pitching, OK defense and a thin bullpen. The only move we make is to pick up an offensive/defensive player?
Don't get me wrong - getting Kenny back was great and I honestly believe it'll help us this season. The thing is, it doesn't do anything towards fixing our biggest weakness. Yes, we'll get a couple of arms back in Fultz and Miller (if he ever gets called up) - but when you have an opportunity to improve you team for this season you do it. John Hart got that and we usually saw trades this time of the year with his teams.
I'm not trying to live in the past, I'm just using him as an example. When you have an open window to the playoffs you do everything you can to get through that window. You temper this with plans for the future, but you make a move when it's there. This is the third year in a row that the Tribe is a "good team". Good teams don't always make the playoffs. I really think we're at a juncture where we could be either another good team or a playoff team.
This is not a negative "the sky is falling" post. I like our team, we are definitely a playoff contending team - and should remain so for the rest of the season (and probably for 3 or so years to come). Now I don't know what happened behind closed doors this past week. There's no way to know what was being discussed. To me, though, the question is did we do anything to increase our chances of making the playoffs? Was there some things we could have done? Are we a better team tonight than we were this morning for this season?
Like I said, I'm just disappointed.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I concede all other points
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
I don't consider Perez/Betancourt/Borowski coupled with Jensen Lewis and a healthy Fultz a glaring weakness. It's something that could have been improved, yes. But the 2006 bullpen was a glaring weakness. This bullpen is just not ideal.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Looking at the bullpen stats thus far, the Indians are middle-of-the-pack in all of MLB.
- 3.97 bullpen ERA (18th in MLB, AL average: 4.20)
- 127 ER allowed (23rd most in MLB, AL average: 145)
- .252 BA against (18th in MLB, AL average: .254)
- .711 OPS against (19th lowest in MLB, AL average: .721)
- 1.37 WHIP (16th lowest in MLB, AL average: 1.40)
- 2.28 K/BB ratio (6th highest in MLB, AL average: 1.87)
Did we have to go out and get a bullpen arm? I'd like to have gotten one, but I don't think it was necessary to bet the farm for one, especially if it were a rental. Would I have done the Dotel-Davies deal if Kyle were an Indian? Most likely. Francisco-Dotel would have been nice, since Francisco is behind a lot of OF depth, but it isn't terribly disappointing we didn't make it. Isringhausen has a high salary (for Dolan's taste) and he wasn't going anywhere. Gagne didn't want to pitch here, and I don't want JoeBo out of the closer's role. Could we have maybe fleeced PGH or WSH for one of their relievers? Perhaps. I figured Dave Littlefield would have played dumb and maybe sent us Marte or Torres, but I didn't expect it out of Bowden and what he wanted for Rauch or Cordero. Bottom line is, with what we have now, I think we'll be alright. Fultz is coming back. Mastny had something going earlier in the year, and I'd like for him to find it again. Lewis has been a good surprise out of the 'pen so far. We've got a 67% chance to make the playoffs this year entering tonight, and I like those odds and I expect them to improve as the season plays itself out.
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
We had a chance to improve our team for this year whilst our main competition did very little. And once again, I would've preferred not going with a Gagne/Dotel type - but some other lesser hyped arm. Ask yourself the question, could we find or do better than Cabrera/Matsney? I wish we had done something and I'm a bit disappointed we didn't.
But I'm still betting we make the playoffs. Sunshine that!
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
by CarnegieAndOntario on Jul 31, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
- The Red Sox, bolstered by Gagne, have seven games left vs the Yankees, seven vs the Angels, and three vs the Mariners -- zero vs. the Indians.
- The Rangers, now without Teixeira and Gagne, have three games left vs the Indians, six vs the Mariners -- zero vs. the Yankees.
- The Royals, now without Dotel, have nine games left vs the Indians, seven vs the Mariners -- zero vs. the Yankees.
So at least indirectly, these trades should help us a little with the Wild Card race.
Re: Vicious Rumors, Idle Speculation and Questiona
Trade talk
"Having been a part of the Ricardo Rincon-for-Brian Giles trade, I swore I'd never trade an everyday player for a reliever," said Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro.
Re: Trade talk
I understand not wanting to trade a potential impact player like Gutierrez, but would he really not trade Francisco for Dotel? We'll never know for sure if that option was on the table. Shapiro's no-comment suggests to me that it was not. (If it was, he would have no reason not to just say, "I wasn't willing to give up Ben, he's too promising of a young player.")
If the story fundamentally is about Gutierrez, then I understand it. It may be a stretch to make the argument that Francisco is close enough to Gutierrez that you can move Gutierrez. But it would not be a stretch to say, "We have guys who can be a good enough replacement for Francisco that we're willing to let him go."

by 















