Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Cleveland at Detroit, 1:05 PM (WTAM)
Scheduled to pitch:
LHP CC Sabathia (starter)
LHP Aaron Laffey
LHP Jeremy Sowers
RHP Jorge Julio
LHP Reid Santos
RHP Rick Bauer
RHP Matt Ginter
LHP Rich Rundles
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Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
"Aaron Laffey."
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
"I don't think Sowers should get it."
"I just know they're going to give it to Lee, and I hate that."
"I really think Laffey will do the best job, I mean he gets so many groundballs and if he can hold his K and BB rates from the upper minors he's going to be sooooooo good."
Etc, etc.
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:09 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
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Now, it may be true that the deal doesn't get done if it doesn't include a swap of Dontrelle and Andrew Miller, because the Marlins wanted a player farther from arbitration (2011) and free agency (2014). But that's more about wanting a top prospect, not the same thing as dumping a contract.
As for whether he sucks, PECOTA is picking 4.59 ERA, which is what Byrd put up last season. The other systems have him between 4.20 and 4.50, but I think several of those were released before he was traded to the AL.
by Jay on Mar 1, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:12 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:18 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:20 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:22 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:27 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
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by ColumbusOhioFan on Mar 1, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:45 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:49 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:52 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:53 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:53 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:56 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:57 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
ewww
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Also, Detroit having a CF named Clevelen is, umm, pretty confusing.
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:17 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:17 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
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by supermarioelia on Mar 1, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
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by supermarioelia on Mar 1, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Progressive will be drilled into everybody by the time the season starts.
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 3:21 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 3:40 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 4:04 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 4:06 PM EST reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
38.7 + 42.2 + 39.4 + 36.7 + 33.5 + 29.7 + 25.1
25.6 + 24.5 + 21.0 + 19.3 + 18.8 + 10.9 + 8.8
Granderson is a little older and already peaking at age 27. He's a very fine player, but the illusion that he's Sizemore's equal is a temporary effect.
by Jay on Mar 1, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Ya got Pronk's seven year projection from last year? I'll bet they're not very accurate.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Of course projections are only projections. Of course "the one who doesn't get hit by a bus" is going to be more productive. You're a goddam genius, Chuck.
Did you even take a moment to consider why I would have posted projections in this instance? Or did you just press one of the "math is hard" argument macros on your VT terminal?
The projections in this case are meant only to show that there is a significant difference in talent between two players who superficially seem somewhat equivalent.
A casual look shows two young center fielders who put up similar numbers in 2007. Granderson's perceived "youth" is largely a product of the fact that nobody had ever heard of him before 2007. A player surging at age 26 is not the same as a player surging at age 23.
The projections represent our best understanding of how talented a player is, as relates to his ability to help us win games in the future.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Just because there's numbers involved doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of opinion and specutlation. You could put together a pretty good All-Star team composed of nothing but players who didn't project all that well when they were in their early 20's. And you could just as easily put together a team composed of nothing but flops who were all projected to be All-Stars.
Just tell me who did the projecting and what it's based on, that's all. In the end it's just random - that's right I said random - speculation. No better and no worse than any other subjective evaluation.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Nobody is saying projections are unassailable fact. Until somebody actually says it, you need not rebut it again. Here again you are emulating E5, as this kind of argument-less antagonism eventually is indistinguishable from trolling.
Perhaps I should have said specifically that these were PECOTA 50th percentile projections. I didn't, because PECOTA is the leading system and the only one that projects VORP, and most anybody who would care to know this already would know it.
Your All-Star teams are Outlier All-Stars. Anyone with a serious interest in projection methods would find those teams interesting -- and in many respects, but not all respects, instructive. Those who are looking for a highly reliable projection system in baseball quickly abandon the cause, because if you understand the math in baseball, you understand that that kind of reliability is just not possible.
What that means is that those who are still interested in baseball projection understand as an article of faith that projections are not unassailable. You are preaching to the choir on this, except that it's more like you're breaking into the choir room screaming out of tune.
Nothing bugs me more than a smart person saying stupid things. I wish you'd get your head out of your prejudices, because they're just not very interesting.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
I believe that the recurring objection to E5's comments is two fold. One, as you've noted, is that he doesn't always address the issue at hand and the other is that he has yet to establish his credentials. The former I'll leave up to you to referee, as to the later here's my "math" background - I chose math since it seems to be a recurring touchstone with you.
I'm licensed as a professional engineer in Hawaii, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Utah. I've taken, and passed the Professional Engineers exam for those states. I've taken and passed the calculus series - including differential equations - at CWRU along with a course in numerical methods - now called finite analysis - and advanced engineering math - mostly LaPlace and Fourier Transform techniques for solving multi-order differential equations. I've taken and passed a statistical analysis course at CWRU - unfortunately I just missed the semester when Dr. Frank Ryan taught one of the classes. I can produce my transcripts if you wish. I've taken two statistically based courses at the Ohio State College of Medicine one on epidemiology and one addressing human performance. They were not offered as distinct courses but were include in the general 16-hour credit called "Medical Science". Unfortunately my transcripts will not reflect this distinct line of study, but, if you wish, I can get one of my classmates to vouch for the fact I've taken these series of lectures. So yeah, I've got a few "math" credentials.
Now back to my point: one of guys said there was some chance that Granderson might - might - have a better career than Grady. Just to recap here's your response:
Projected seven-year VORP for our guy vs. their guy:
38.7 + 42.2 + 39.4 + 36.7 + 33.5 + 29.7 + 25.1
25.6 + 24.5 + 21.0 + 19.3 + 18.8 + 10.9 + 8.8
Granderson is a little older and already peaking at age 27. He's a very fine player, but the illusion that he's Sizemore's equal is a temporary effect.
No equivocation, no explanation as to the validity of the "projection" just the strong implication that the suggestion that Granderson is even close to the player that Grady is is ridiculous. Your statement did not even hint of any equivocation. That's all I was looking for. Instead it sounded like you were pissing on the notion that Granderson may be better than Sizemore from some great height and that height was scaled by mounting a stack of projection VORPS of questionable accuracy. I was looking for a little more humility here - that's all.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
I think it's generally understood that whatever their strengths and limitations, the projection systems are objective. Pretty much every system with even a hair of maturity is going to regard Sizemore a notch or two more highly than Granderson. The projections show this for specific reasons, and those reasons are objective.
I mention this only to say, the Tigers fans can say one thing, the Indians fans another. Guys who are annoyed that Sizemore has been overexposed can like Granderson better, guys who hate overspending teams can like Sizemore better. Bias comes in all shapes and sizes and colors and creeps into every last crevice.
Against this, we do have a few purely objective things we can look to. PECOTA is not interested giving the answer anyone wants to read, it does not twist around to meet the psychological needs of the reader. It simply says what it says, using objective data and objective mdoels of interpretation. Are there human choices within it, based on some form of subjectivity? Yes, but those subjective choices have nothing to do with any one player or team.
So every system will tell you Sizemore is the player you'd rather have. Does that make it so? No. But it is objective, and that's a start.
By the way, I stand by the E5 comparison completely. Our disagreement basically is that you think you have some brilliant point to make about deflating statistical inferences, and I think you just need a nap. I've learned plenty from you on a number of subjects, but not one thing about applied statistics. Maybe you need a refresher course.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
And I see the major flaw in E5's arguments as his uncritical acceptance of any theory that runs counter to mainstream thinking simply because he's suspicious of mainstream thinking. Sound familiar?
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
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That does sound like a problem...
by APV on Mar 3, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
All I did is repeat your position (and clarify mine).
projecting human performance is far from an exact science. That's my "brilliant" point.
Yeah, I know. And while you're shouting BOOYA! I'm saying "Duh." What I am failing to grasp here is why you think this point needs to be made. Nobody disagrees with that point as far as I know.
What's the next point?
- "Not everyone is the same height, you know."
- "Sometimes a pitcher will throw a pitch that isn't the same speed as his other pitches."
- "Sometimes when the batter hits the ball poorly, he might still end up with a hit."
- "A lot of first basemen would not do very good job as a shortstop."
- "The game has changed a lot since Cy Young was around."
- "Derek Jeter has four rings more than you do."
- "Genesis got a lot more commercial after Peter Gabriel left."
Why do you feel the need to fling this curious little mudball around?
I think that last bit is your awkward attempt to turn the E5 comparison around on me. Is that it? Because it's not as obvious as your other points. Assuming that that's it, all I can tell you is that I'm particularly suspicious of all radicalism and all orthodoxy, and nearly everything in between.
by Jay on Mar 3, 2008 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
You spend a great deal of effort wrapping yourself in the sabermetrics flag and saying, "see these guys are smart, I agree with them, there fore I must be smart too."
I think a little more critical thinking is in order.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
I don't think they're particularly helpful for projecting four years into the future -- and with respect to Pronk I sure as hell hope not -- but the fact that if you did run four-year projections, Sizemore would have to be scored ahead of Granderson, that in itself is meaningful right now and for the next several years.
All-determining? No. Meaningful? Yes. What I am trying to do is to add some objective analysis into the conversation -- not to exclude feelings, but to distinguish what we each feel in our guts with what an objective approach might indicate.
So I'm sorry not to be able to give you the opinion that you would respect a great deal more. I do think the projections are meaningful, and I understand the math and methodology that makes them so.
Take for example your earlier statement, that PECOTA has only been around since 2003 and can't be well tested, a comment that suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of how PECOTA works and has worked. For one thing, the system has been refined every, becoming more nuanced and accurate all along the way.
We don't just have four years of data with which to test PECOTA, we have over 100 years of data. The projection methods generally can be applied to any player at any point in his career, and then tested against what really happened for each individual player over the next one or two or five or seven seasons. The entire system, in fact, is based on weighting and aggregating exactly these types of reflexive comparisons -- I believe over 100 comparable player-seasons are used in some cases for each player-season projection.
So in fact, Nate Silver understands very well when they publish each year's numbers how accurate the projection method is, based on the prior 100-plus years of baseball.
But evidently you didn't even know enough about PECOTA to understand this. What did you do, Chuck, look up PECOTA in Wikipedia before posting your luddite critique?
I could bore you to death with my critiques of this metric or that, including PECOTA. I have written critiques like that many times, sometimes at great length. While I do try to recognize each metric and resource for its usefulness (if any), I blindly subscribe to nothing. There is a big difference between the two.
The idea that I need to associate myself with someone else in order to feel smart ... is so far off ... I don't even know where to start. All I can say is, this idea that I'm insecure about my intellect and need to prop myself up somehow, well, your insight will come as a huge surprise to every person who has ever known me.
Best I can figure, Chuck, you are mad at someone else and taking it out on me -- and PECOTA. Because the things you're talking about just have nothing to do with me and nothing to do with PECOTA.
by Jay on Mar 3, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
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by Gradyforpresident on Mar 3, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
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Here's the part that hung me up. The "Comparable Players" concept. Doing retrospective analysis this is easy. Matching up career arcs is a snap. Doing this at the start of a player's career is much more difficult and critical in the projection and this is where the bullshit comes in. Sure you've got 100 years worth of data, but you can be much more confident in how you classify players at the end of their careers.
Try this with our boy Hafner. You say he'll have a similar career arc as Wes Ferrell, Jim Gentile and Dick Stuart grouping. And I say he'll have a career arc more similar to Hal Trosky and Tony Horton - exaggeration here for emphasis. Doing this in retrospect is easy.
Giving this system a true test is gonna take time. Let me know how accurate these boyz are doing predictions and not how well their algorithm performs looking at history.
Giving this system a true test is gonna take tiem. Give me 30 years worth of projections with a .700 BA and then I'm impressed.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
The "Most Similar By Age" section is a twist on this, comparing all players only through a certain age X using the same formula, but it's a crude method, and James never suggested that his Similarity Formula makes any sense to use in this way. Baseball Reference makes no explicit claim that this is a real projection system either.
Most notably, Similarity Scores are based heavily on counting stats, i.e., they place lots of emphasis on how many of this-or-that a player has compiled and little emphasis on how many PA or IP it took the player to do it. Again, it's characterizing "career achievement" in a fairly banal way.
PECOTA doesn't do this at all. It's looking to profile the three most recent seasons of a player's career and compare it with every other three-season stretch that any player has ever had. It looks (directly or indirectly) at counting stats and rate stats and it profiles both players and their production in dozens of ways -- for example, differentiating high-strikeout sluggers from contact hitters, defensive position and performance, playing time, handedness, and age of course.
Traditional Similarity Scoring isn't one-tenth as sophisticated, but there is a singular key difference directly on point with your concerns, and that is, with respect to performance comparability, PECOTA is really only looking at three seasons of data. It is not, in fact, waiting until the end of someone's career to decide what kind of player he was.
It's saying, Grady entering 2008 is most similar to:
- Ray Lankford entering 1992
- Barry Bonds entering 1979
- Bobby Murcer entering 1981
- and 100 other guys
I would think, given your professed annoyance with the lack of confidence intervals in these discussions, that you would appreciate PECOTA's use of a probability distribution. It is true that we all tend to focus on the mean projection, and I am as guilty of this as anybody, but what PECOTA is really saying is a lot more nuanced and complete -- it just doesn't work as well in a brief conversation.
by Jay on Mar 3, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Presumably the right year for the Bonds comparison is 1990, when he was the same age as Sizemore is now and had played three-plus seasons in the majors as Sizemore has. Incidentally, Lankford, Bonds, Murcer, Moseby ... none of them even show up on baseballreference's age-24 similarity list ... nor do Fred Lynn, Bobby Bonds, Roger Maris or David Justice.
Of the Top 20 comps shown on PECOTA, only Duke Snider shows up on the baseballreference Top 10.
by Jay on Mar 3, 2008 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
This extended exchange is worth the energy. I definitely picked up some more information on PECOTA. BTW, I made a huge faux pas myself - Wes Ferrell was a pitcher for chrissakes. I knew that - after all we pitched for the Tribe during my favorite era - the `30s. And yes kiddies, I had season tickets.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
For 2008 ...
- Grady's 75° projection (.315 EqA) is right around Granderon's 90° projection (.314).
- Grady's 50° projection (.298) is right around Granderon's 75° projection (.299).
- Grady's 25° projection (.287) is right around Granderson's 50° projection (.286).
- Grady's 10° projection (.271) is right around Granderson's 25° projection (.269).
Yes, the CI for multi-year projections is going to be huge, but perhaps not as huge as you think. More to the point, there is still value to knowing the mean projection for each player as a point of comparison.
A related and interesting metric is the Attrition Rate, defined as the rate at which similar players end up losing half their playing time (due to injury or poor performance). For 2013, Sizemore has a 23% attrition rate, Granderson's is 45%. This, along with the mean projections, is indicative of the diversity of career paths reflected in each player's pool of similar players. Granderson matches up with significantly more players who washed out after brief careers -- although still not all that well.
What should always be kept in mind here is that Granderson is 18 months older, and always will be. So in looking at the attrition rates for 2013, we're talking about age 30 season for Sizemore and age 32 for Granderson, which makes a difference.
And that leads us back to my original point, or at least, the point I meant to imply but should have laid out better. Sizemore is projected to be better in 2008, that is true. But the more significant point is that, because of the age difference, the gap between the two players will be smallest in 2008 and 2009, when their ages are 25/27 and 26/28. As Sizemore moves into what is likely his prime and Granderson moves into (a very mild) decline, the difference in value likely will increase.
This isn't just a simple age curve, it's also reflective of the two players being different types of talents, again, despite how similar they seem at first blush. Sizemore is fast, but Granderson is faster, and speed is a more significant part of his game both on the bases and in the field. Speed is generally understood to peak at age 24, meaning that even Grady's speed is already in decline -- but Granderson's speed is a bit more in decline, and approaching more significant decline more quickly, and speed is a much bigger part of his game.
Grady is the fundamentally stronger hitter in every facet, and you see this everywhere in his stats. Despite being closer to the ideal age of 27, Granderson has only had a higher batting average once, in 2007, and only with the aid of a .360 BABIP. Granderson's ISO was also propped up by all those triples -- there's that speed again -- and yet Sizemore edged him out in SecAvg overall, because he draws nearly twice as many walks.
I point all this out only to show that we're looking at players that look less and less similar the deeper you look, and Sizemore's "typology" lends itself not only to better performance, but to a significantly better chance of sustaining a performance level over multiple years. And all of these issues are incorporated in some way into PECOTA's similarity scoring.
As a side note, I was shocked to see the difference between the two players vs-LHP in 2007 -- 812 OPS for Grady, 494 for Granderson. Granderson had a .211 BABIP vs-LHP, .390 vs-RHP. We can safely assume that won't happen again.
I have to disagree with the comparison with scouting. For one thing, I think it's just apples and oranges. BUt if you're going to insist on a comparison, the fact is, we have far more solid data with which to evaluate any given version of PECOTA -- 20,000 player-seasons of results in excruciating detail. Scouting has been around longer, but how can you really evaluate it? Does it even make sense to apply an objective evaluation to it?
The other thing of course is that statistics in general have been used in player evaluation literally for over 100 years. It's not like people just sat around and did whatever the scouts said, ignoring the numbers entirely. So let's not pretend this is a scouts-vs-stats thing, that would be a ridiculous distortion.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
See. They're exactly equal.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
BTW, the inclusion of the long historical train may actually decrease the accuracy of the projections. I strongly suspect that the attrition data is skewed towards shorter careers prior to the common improvements in sports medicine notably Tommy John surgery as well as other orthopedic and physical conditioning advances that tend to prolong careers. Will forgo the tedious PED discussion.
As to the computer vs. scout thing. If Diamondview ever produces the same proficiency as Cy Slapnika I'll be truly impressed.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Secondly, Chuck I am sure you can out bench press me but that isn't my goal. If you really want a competition we need more then just the bench to determine if you or I are a better athlete/baseball player. When I was in the military I was a 90% scorer in all my physical fitness tests. If you want bench I am pushing for the 60 yard dash and weighted bag runs.
by E5 on Mar 3, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
So, OK, I'll let you choose the parameters. We'll do the US Army PT test and see who scores the highest. But not to demonstrate who's the better baseball player, or football player - I'd much rather do one-on-one nutcrackers with you with Jay as the running back - no it's to test your "advanced" training theories against my primitive work-out regimen. Let's see if you with all your highfalutin' logorrhea can actually perform.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
by supermarioelia on Mar 4, 2008 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
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by E5 on Mar 4, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
The best-known systems projected some 800 players last season, and it stands to reason that the most inaccurate projections are going to stick out in our minds. But one extreme-outlier example doesn't mean anything, except that it's a big sport with a lot of variance. Well, duh, everybody knows that.
Pronk's projections were one of the least successful -- possibly the most significant under-performance of any major league player, leaving injuries aside. But if you do any systematic study of how the projections do, you'll be surprised how well they do.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
If you've got 60 prospects in your farm system you only need 2 or 3 outliers to make a huge impact on the success of your major league club. Hafner is/was one of those outliers.
It's a decent bet to think that Granderson and Grady will play at a level consistent with their current level of play, but to think that this is unassailable fact is stupid.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Have you ever known me to say anything like that?
What is unassailable is that based on the objective data, Sizemore's projected performance is superior. But projections are only projections. Projections tell us everything we know about a player's real talent, but we don't know everything about every player's talent, and talent is only one variable in future performance.
Ironically, Pronk is on the opposite side of this argument, as a player who broke out in his late 20's rather than his early 20's. Pronk's 2007 slip, while well beyond anything that could have been projected, is a supporting data point in the difference between players who break out early and late. A year ago, it was easy to envision that Pronk could put up 1000-ish OPS clear through age 36 -- as Jim Thome has. Now, it's not quite so easy.
One constant is that as fans, we all vastly overweight the significance of a single outlier season, in either direction. PECOTA is particularly useful in understanding objectively what a reasonable expectation is after such a season.
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
Re: Game Thread: March 1, 2008
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 1, 2008 4:08 PM EST reply actions

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